Two way picklsanting

-I believe this is the video you were asking for. This is such an uncomfortable motion for me as I am much more used to having more of a USX (downslant) when playing anything else

https://studio.youtube.com/video/69jmgJkspYY/edit
-in these two videos im doing my more natural picking position which favors the USX type of motion (at least to my eyes). Very messy as I tend to get tangled up with the strings and doing the DBX motion to get out of one string when ending on a downstroke.

-heres a slowed down version to more easily see what I am talking about. When changing to that secondary motion of DBX to get out of the trapped zone, I either miss the string or hit it.

Also, still unsure of what exact motion I am using. I believe it is wrist motion

Sorry for all the videos and writing. I have been working on picking for a couple years now with no luck. thanks for the help!!

Thanks for posting all these!

I think we need to be clearer in the instructional stuff about what a primary motion is. In these clips it looks like you’re trying to do at least three different techniques, with three different motions and three different forms / arm positions. This would be like trying to speak Italian, German, and Spanish, all in the same conversation. It’s not what most players do when their technique is settled. Instead, they typically choose one form, and very often one motion, and stick with that. Not only that, but most of the time, they can’t choose other motions because they don’t know how to do those motions. So this isn’t really a “choice”, per se, it’s just them doing what they know.

In these clips, are you trying to “do” the motions you learned about in the Primer? Or is that true for only some of these? If you just fret a single note on a single string and pick it fast, without thinking about it, which motion is it?

When you do that, is the motion you’re using close to the speed and smoothness of your table tap test results? Or is it substantially slower?

Hey Troy! Thanks for the help. I think I am still confused as to what motion I am predisposed to. I took a video of my tremolo playing so I’ll attach that here. It seems to be wrist motion but Its not so clear to me. Its just as fast as my table wrist test. In the videos I had posted initially I actually had not yet finished the Primer so I guess I was experimenting more than anything with different techniques. One of my main goals is to be able to play both even and odd numbered notes per string. In the videos I posted earlier today, I was trying to adapt the Andy Wood sort of technique where he changes from a DSX motion to an USX motion when changing strings on an upstroke just to clear the string. I was attempting to do that using my “primary” USX motion. I hope this makes sense! Thanks again!

-here is the tremelo picking!

Gotcha. You can have whatever long-term goals you want, but the question is how you get there. You get there by becoming great at whatever technique you know now, so you can learn what smooth, synchronized playing feels like, and so you can start building musical vocabulary. You can always learn other techniques over time like a hobby.

This motion in this video looks like it’s comfortable for you, but the speed seems to be around 165bpm or so, which is low. When we filmed the table tapping tests, I started at 150bpm in the first couple of videos, then in one of the later ones I started at 170bpm to save time because it didn’t seem like anyone, unless they are injured, would realistically need to test 150bpm. You’re saying your table tap tests were 160-170bpm? Are you sure?

If you just go for it without thinking, as fast as you can, what is the picking motion and how fast is it?

So I think the problem is that those tempos are so fast I just cant process 16th notes at that speed. Initially I had tried what you said in the primer about checking the tempo after recording the tremelo picking but again, I just cant tell the tempo. I tried playing to a click of 210 bpm just now and I think it helped. I even tried doing 16th note bursts at the end of the videos. If I am not mistaken, I do reach 210 BPM 16th notes with this sort of motion that looks a bit different from yesterday. I just usually dont try picking at high speeds in my normal playing just because Ive never been able to do so cleanly haha. But these are pretty much the motions I would naturally go to if I did try to pick something fast. I don’t think I have ever used another motion unless I purposely tried to. Anyway, hope these videos are better. Thank you so much once again!

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11 posts were split to a new topic: Limitations of elbow motion - discussion

Sounds to me like high 150s / low 160s. Overall not a bad motion though! You should experiment with rooting your palm a little harder, looks to be some motion lost in that area.

Thanks for filming again. The first question is the table tapping test. Watch this video again, and tap the table along with me. You don’t even need a metronome, just watch the video and play along. What speed do you get? Remember, you’re going for it for two bars, so don’t worry about being graceful or economical, just go fast:

Do that much and we’ll go from there!

hey Troy, I ended up getting 230 bpm 16th notes with you in the video. I started getting sloppy after that.

Awesome! How do you get sloppy tapping a table? Did you miss?? :slight_smile:

The point of this is that your test results are substantially faster than your clips here. Which is fine, I know you said you don’t spend a lot of time trying to play fast. But it’s an indication that there is potentially something you can do to unlock more speed and smoothness, which will help all speeds sound better. Finding any motion you can do that gets nearer to your tapping test is a good project to play around with. It doesn’t really matter what motion it is at first. This includes the much-maligned “elbow” technique that is still a great thing to know. All successful motions are good motions in the beginning.

As part of this, you’re also looking for an attack that sounds good — smooth and even, without a lot of scraping against the string, and no garage spikes ( https://troygrady.com/primer/picking-motion/pickslanting/ ). In your clips so far, there is varying amounts of pick noise, and occasional garage spikes. Are you trying to force the motions to look a certain way, i.e. “small motions”? If so, don’t worry about that. Shoot for a pickstroke that plays the string and goes forcefully past it. Don’t linger against the string and get scrapey, put some force into it.

Experiment with a single-note tremolo, with different motions and grips, and see if you can get something faster and more consistent than the previous clips. Any updates, happy to take a look.

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thank you so much for taking the time to help! Ill be working on this a lot this weekend and hopefully have an update next week :slight_smile:

hey Troy, been working on this every day and think I have made a little progress. It is still too fast for me to figure out what bpm it is in 16th notes. To my ear it does seem a little faster. It also seems like I am using a little more elbow motion. Just wanted to see if you still had any tips. I rewatched most of the series and tried out other motions but none seemed to work but this one.

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Thanks for giving this another shot! This is indeed a little faster than earlier. Tempo varies, but without examining it too closely, the top end is closer to 180 at moments so that’s much better.

In general, this isn’t really a thing you should work on, per se, so much as experiment a lot with. if that’s what you mean, then great. Your tests already showed that you have much more speed than even this attempt, so it’s just a matter of figuring out which motion will unlock that on the guitar.

The closest motion you can do to the actual tap tests is a wrist tapping motion. If you just tap on your pickguard with the pick in your hand, while seated in this posture, can you get back to the same 200bpm+ results from your table tapping tests? When you do that, does it feel easier than the picking motion you’re using in this clip?

Also, the attack here may not be as smooth as it could be. It sounds like pick chirp is creating a note a minor sixth above the note you’re playing, almost like a double stop tremolo. You’ll hear this when you use the neck pickup and when you use either a heavy gauge pick or a lot of edge picking. Are you using a heavy pick like a heavy ultex with a wide bevel? If so, try something thinner like a standard nylon pick around 1mm. You can also experiment with a little less edge picking to make that go away.

Yup, I’ve just been experimenting with different sitting/posture positions, standing, attempting the various motions, the way I hold the pick, etc. When I tap my pickguard I am able to hit 210 bpm (hitting the pickguard twice in one click). The motion I have right now doesn’t really cause me to tense up as much as others. I think I just have some sort of mental block. I feel like I play faster to a metronome than I do without one. I know you said to try doing it without one but I just cant figure out what tempo I am picking at. It is just too fast for me to process haha. I have been doing bursts and seem to be able to get up to about 205 bpm. Not sure what you think about doing those. Ill send a video now

I also tried playing around with less edge picking. I think the scraping noise diminished a bit.

Second clip sounds the best so far. Attack is definitely improved and the speed is probably mid 180s at points, so better on all fronts.

Doing short bursts of stuff never did anything for me. I get no tactile feedback from something that starts and stops in a half a second, so I don’t know what I can learn from that. Not saying it can’t work for some purpose, but it’s just not something I’ve done.

I don’t know if I like this motion or if you could do better, but I’m a fan of working with what we have and trying to make progress. The next step is hand sync:

You can use a metronome but synchronizing to an external source isn’t the main goal — it’s synchronizing the hands, even as you speed up, which you’ll see I do several times in the lesson. Metronomes aren’t good at that. Also, I’ve seen many, many clips of the click droning away in the background where players really aren’t listening to it, so what’s the point?

You keep mentioning that things are too fast to know how fast you’re going. This will fix that. It is very easy to hear when the six-note pattern speeds up, even by a small amount, because you’re only listening to the first note.

Give this a shot for a week or so, a few minutes here and there, and see if you can get it sounding good, with clean attack, at speeds similar to the clips you’ve posted here. That’s a big step if you can get to that point.

awesome, thanks a lot! I will work on this and update you in a couple weeks

Hey Troy, heres an update. I have been practicing the pattern with the different finger positions you showed. Just wondering if you could give me a quick critique. The synchronization has gotten better I believe and although I have been using the metronome, I am trying to just listen for the first note hitting the click/ attempting to chunk it.

Hey Troy, I went back to square one to try to fix up a better motion. I have experimented with everything and I am just not sure if I have made any progress. I have tried to focus on finding a motion that doesn’t seem to tense up easily. When I tense up, I tend to use this extra sort of arm motion for support that I don’t believe is doing me any good. I’ve worked on this for 1-2 hours a day since my first post. Just don’t know if I am getting anywhere. Here a video of my motion currently. Also, is there anyone you recommend that can maybe give me a couple lessons to try to pinpoint exact things to me?

If you’re not happy with these attempts, my comment is that in general, all of these attempts look similar. They’re all in the deviation / elbow ballpark, don’t go as fast as your table tap tests, and have a very small motion size with aggressive attack.

I don’t know what the magic bullet is, but part of me wants to see you do something that is totally, 100%, different than what you currently do, just so we can say we 100% succeeded in learning something new. Maybe there can be some learning there that will transfer to other ways of playing.

Here’s a less common approach. This is a wrist motion that is very easy and fast. It is similar to tapping on a table:

The trailing edge grip is just there to make the string attack smooth. The pick is coming in on a diagonal (DSX), and you need some way of having it slice into the string smoothly, and slice back out again smoothly. If I hold it with an index finger grip, I can’t get the UWPS orientation I need. So I have to hold it this way. You can swivel the pick in your grip until it is exactly perpendicular to the path it is travelling. When you achieve this, the attack will feel very smooth in both directions. Just so we’re on exactly the same page here, try to use a Jazz III if you have one.

It feels very comfortable and the motion is light and easy. It goes easily over 200bpm when you figure it out. Edit: Think of it like tapping on a table. The motion that goes toward the guitar is the tap. The motion that goes away is sort of the ‘up-tap’. This is the reverse of how we normally think because here the tap is an upstroke. Don’t think of it like that. Just think of it as a tap. To go faster just think, tap tap tap tap, focusing on the tap (trapped) pickstroke. That’s how you keep time with it.

Give this a shot and see if you can copy it. If you film it, do it down the neck in good lighting at 120fps so we can see what’s going on.

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