Limitations of elbow motion - discussion

You’re picking with the whole hand while also doing forearm rotation. Relearn to pick with the wrist elbow is garbage ( This is the part where someone sends me a vid of some dude picking with the elbow with a poor synchonysation and only picking on adjacent string via swiping and SAYS ELBOW IS GOOD)
2nd U should pick the string with a larger movement what you’re doing now is bouncing all over muting it with the pick and not even letting it ring ( Listen to it, staccato as hell)
Also why would you pick with a downward angle? The first outside picking change will kill you

Please watch the tone here. No motions are “garbage”, and even if they were, I don’t address people on here that way, and neither will you if you want to stick around.

Re: selling footage of other players through your top-secret gmail address. Are you serious? We nuked that post. Don’t do it again.

Since when is elbow motion garbage?

this is a dad forum where you tell everyone no matter how bad “keep it up play how u want”
I mean you can play the piano by bashing your nose on the keyboard buuuut)

For real imagine a technique based boxing forum where the guys are like “Yeah you can slap the guy that’s gonna knock him out for sure” whatever feels comfortable mate)))

That’s not at all what we are doing here! When there are obvious problems like “stringhopping” we tell people to change things straight away.

Different joints have different capabilities which typically translate into different vocabularies. Saying “elbow=bad” is simply missing the point.

Elbow is typically DSX, so it will work well with phrases that only change strings after downstrokes (additional helper motions can be then used for the additional string change: see early Vinnie Moore). Gipsy-style forearm-rotation motions are typically USX, so they work well for changing strings after upstrokes. And so on and so forth. Great music can be performed with ease in both systems.

In general, I have to reiterate to please tone down the provocations. We’re very happy to hear different opinions but they should be formulated nicely. Let’s discuss contrasting ideas but not attack each other in the process thank you.

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Okay I’ll explain where and how you’re wrong
Not because I’m trying to prove something for I really don’t care
I just wanna save the dude who may be here like me 4 years ago wasting his time on this stuff so lets begin.

String hopping which Troy is trying to fight here is not actually the problem.
The bigger problem is hopping on the single string when you’re not even changing it.
It can be illustrated perfectly by Troy himself. When he’s picking on a single string 2 things happen:

  1. His pick is being tilted in his fingers by the string. That leads to 2 problems:
    1. While the pick is touching the string and is being bent by it the string does not sound. That leads to a very staccato sounding picking. You can actually play legato with the pick but I’m not going to explain how to fix this for free duh
    2. A much bigger problem - because the pick is being tilted the wrist is going slightly up. That leads to you doing 2 motions instead of one. So you’re doing twice the work on every pick stroke
    ALSO you brain works in a way that it cannot learn 2 motions at the same time effectively
    This also leads to a few more problems but again I’m not your guitar teacher.

  2. The problem with the whole pickslanting thing is that in none of the videos present in Troy’s courses the mechanics of WHEN AND HOW to change angles are not explained (spoiler : because you don’t know how to actually do it)
    Anton is playing 10 52’s in standard He is ripping his guitar apart and he doesnt have the above mentioned problems For example if Troy or even Martin Miller would try to play the 16th caprice like he does the result would sound staccato and weak + it would be much slower because of the 2 movement thing

Why elbow is bad?
The best elbow player out there - Vinnie Moore is going to be killed by a simple lick like this just like any elbow guy would


  • this ----- is the string in between----- for some reason the line is getting deleted —


And I’m even not talking about more complex string changes like skipping 2 3 or even 4 strings.

Also because elbow is way to big it cannot manage making the movements which are required to play perfectly for it just physically cannot do millimeter movements that are required for complex string changes. That is why all elbow players only play 1 type of string change and even that is usually done not with a clean string change but by swiping. Also all elbow players have sync problems. I mean all of them. That happens because the elbow constantly moves and the whole hand changes position, so you cannot do the movement exactly the same each time.
In order to do these things you have to pick with the wrist with ideally no movement of the hand up or down whatsoever, though often you kinda move it but a few millimeters tops.

I’ll be glad to answer any other questions you may have :slight_smile:

For the serious guys I suggest enrolling in Oparin’s school and not wasting time here like I did

I think Jason Richardson is a brutal elbow player (although he insists he’s never using his elbow) but yes, today I watched some of Anton’s videos and remembered an old Kiko Loureiro video where he was skipping 5 strings without issues on crazy tempos. As a beginner+ elbow player I’m almost sure I’d never be able to play any of those things. Just tried the string skipping section at the beginning of Lost not forgotten by Petrucci with a similar lick you posted and no way I’d play this with my current technique.

Jason has sync problem’s too, though he’s a cool guy, not like those nerds who base their whole playing on being able to do 1 type of string change and avoiding everything else. This guy goes for the things he wants to play even if they’ll sound a lil dirty so respect to him.
Still has sync problems tho, I remember some loudwire or some other video of him where he plays a sweep run followed by an elbow alternate picking - classic elbow sync problems and picking confidently only on adjacent strings

Kiko is one of the best guitar players ever yet his cross picking is no match to Anton’s in speed or agression because he uses fingers, and also he swipes a lot ( I used to analyse his technique coz I really like the guy and his music)
Also Kiko only can do staccato picking coz his pick is being bent all the time

To Illustrate my point with elbow players
I just typed Jason Richardson on youtube

Literally the first thing he plays relatively fast does it sound in sync to you?)
Slow was perfect sync but you cant play elbow or even wrist with moving your hand and have good sync

Any other fast elbow run is going to be the same because that’s just how it works. It’s a hit or miss, usually miss

Upd. I kept watching he has some sync problems in the following example which he played slow

You may be right about it, I’m having similar problems with purely alternate picked lines like this.

I’m really not trying to be the smartest guy or a dick in any way.
I just wanna help the guys who are looking for actual answers.
I learned all of this from the maestro himself so thanks to him

Thanks @tommo for splitting the conversation :slight_smile:

I’m really struggling with tempos beyond 180bpm 16th notes (I’ve been playing since 2020 October) and I was below 120bpm for months and overnight I was hitting stuff 180+ in last February but I’m still having issues with stamina. Although I have not practiced anything useful in the last 9 months because I played in a 70’s cover band and learning material consumed all my free time, I still feel like I just can’t find that new motion/what I’m doing wrong to make picking even on a single string sustainable around 190-210 bpm.

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If you want send a vid right now I’ll tell you what’s wrong

Also there is a way of training stamina which you should do at the end of the day (You’re not supposed to play afterwards rep till failure type of thing) not sure if I should be sharing this tho

I appreciate you bringing the tone to more friendly levels!

I confess I do not understand all the points you are making. I understand how the pick in contact with the string will stop it, hence a more staccato sound. But I think even with a loose pick grip (e.g. Mike Stern) the effect is so short-lived that it can easily be ignored.

However, I noticed that you are being kinda “secretive” about the details, and some info you only want to release upon payment. If so, this conversation doesn’t really feel like a genuine attempt to help anyone but rather it takes more of an “infomercial” vibe.

I post a few of my vids.

Here I’m trying to execute one of the runs in the Scarred solo, the “fun” (falling apart) part starts at 1:33 when I go beyond 180+

My picking hand is not visible here unfortunately. It was on a good day, not completely in sync, but could hit it on the original tempo 106 bpm 32nd notes:

Still of the night run, it’s an absolute mess, I can only play it on good days, if I can at all:

An other sloppy run, it gets insanely hard especially getting to the higher strings. I don’t feel I have a stable point to relate to with my picking hand.

An finally this one, the final run is out of sync

My problems are amplified a lot when I try playing in a standing position, but in the last two weeks since I started practicing again, I avoid playing while sitting.

I’ve got my 2 of my own guitar school dvd’s lined up. Should be avaliable round june/july, I’ll make a note to comeback here when it is done.

But I’ve shared the most important thing to get you started for free. (If someone told me this years ago maaaan)
If you pick is being tilted while playing even the simplest 1 string tremolo there’s no point going further, how do I illustrate this it’s like a bycicle trying to get some speed but each time your wrist jumps upwards it is like someone kicking the wheels.

To be honest what I did is studied the anatomy of the hand and some sports literature. In order to develop speed your body needs a small single movement. If your pick tilts that makes your wrist go up
So instead of your hand moving like this

downstroke --------------
upstroke -------------

It goes like this

     ---------           -----

There is one more mistake

Is when to get a good sound u play with the opposite arc ( aka Yngwie) (though he is still mostly staccato because he holds the pick kinda loosely)
This motion will get you a proper sound but will limit you playing to only a few string changes

Your name is Gabriel I suppose?
So Hi Gabriel)

1st video
two mahor problems
Your hand is almost 90 degrees to the stings

Here’s a little experiment for you to actually test and understand if i’m right or wrong
In the position you are right now try to make a wrist movement
Simple up and down, see how you’re almost going paralel to the string? You’re kinda brushing it along its length

If you would place the hand 30-45 degree angle then the motion would be more string piercing.

Try this when you see the point lets get to the next thing

You see how your hand is going all the way up and all the way down when you change strings (you’re lifting your elbow, That is going to create sync problems 100% ot the times no exception. Like you play 10 reps fast and only 2-3 will be in sync)

What you should look up is Anton’s or Gilbert’s position you see how the hand doesn’t move at all (It moves sometimes but it’s almost non existent compared to you)

The still of the night video

  1. Swiping all over no clean string changes
  2. elbow up and down kills the wrist sync

To be honest what I would suggest Is to fix the up and down arm movement and become good at swiping. (Unless you wanna compete in being one of the best in the world in picking)

In order to relearn my picking and to get any good at Anton’s system it took me 2 years, I started out with picking 40 bpm. Wasn’t no fun trust me and I don’t think anyone would want this self imposed hell.

Just learn to get swiping as clean as it can be and dont move your arm while changing strings.
And practice that thing I’ve said before. The string bends underneath, not the pick or the arm.

So you’re here to insult us and our teaching, and promote and sell your own stuff as well as video of other players they don’t know you’re selling? No, you will not be coming back here to do any of these things, you’re done here.

To be clear to anyone else reading, I have zero issues with good faith questioning of technical issues in guitar playing, even if it shows that we’re wrong about something. I have been wrong many times about many things, and any honest teacher and player will tell you the same. It’s how we learn. In this case, this is not what’s happening here.

Read our terms of service for very clear language about pimping and selling your own stuff, and being a dismissive jerk to others on the forum.