Uneven picking when starting on usptrokes

Playing Technique
#1

Hi guys!

I discovered cracking the code about half a year ago and I have made great progress since then. I’ve come to realize that I’m a DSX player who favors string changes after down-strokes and have built up quite some speed compared to before. Since I also want to play licks with even notes per strings I have started practicing these kind of licks starting on a upstroke.

Here is where I’m running into trouble. When I start tremolo picking on one string starting on a upstroke I almost always fall into some kind of “bebop/swing” feeling where the notes are uneven, every other note is slightly longer. I can control this quite easy at slower tempos but when I reach about 120 bpm (16th notes) I feel how the timing becomes an issue. At higher speeds (160+) I cant really tell the difference (depending on the lick) and it doesn’t seem to be an issue.

Has anyone else experienced this, how did you fix it?

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#2

Hey @BoBBoLove!

Slightly academic answer:

@Troy taught me that usually the swing feel is achieved by having paths of different lengths above and below the string. So one side of the pickstroke takes longer than the other, even though the hand moves regularly. Since you are a MIM subscriber, you check out this video around 3m10:

So I guess one thing you could try is to film your playing with a magnet-style angle and check if this is what is actually happening. Filmin instructions attached as it is of course our tradition :slight_smile:

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#3

@tommo I’m starting to wonder if there really is something to this starting-on-an-upstroke on-a-single-string problem that people have. Here, we see a timing problem, and then in the other thread with Django we saw his hand wanting to revert to a downstroke.

I think I’m going to test straight 8ths with upstrokes only on the low E and see how it compares to my downpicking and message you the results.

@BoBBoLove My best suggestion would be to flip the picking. Every person on the forum who tries tremolo picking starting on a downstroke eventually seems to get it, not sure if reinventing the wheel here is the best solution.

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#4

I think indeed the upstroke is weird for most people, but I am not sure if it may just be a force-of-habit thing: most people come here with quite a lot of guitar education already, and most guitar education teaches the “downstroke way” :slight_smile:

I am not a particularly fast player so I can’t comment on the higher speeds, but in the 180-190bpm 16ths territory I personally have developed good enough timing and hand sync starting with either pickstroke, on a number of licks.

@Troy has done some in depth experimentation with more “vertical” wrist motions and basically developed an uber-fast picking style where the upstrokes are the naturally strong/accented notes:

This is all just to say that some “strange things” may be possible.

That being said, I think it’s certainly a good idea for @BoBBoLove to try both upstroke and downstroke versions and see where he makes the most progress

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Swung notes / playing with 'swing feel'
#5

Yeah I was just watching that video the other day. That’s what is making me re-think things a bit. But I also did see your thread with the acoustic guitar and you were talking about the string tracking component making certain 3NPS phrases easier (the outside version of descending sixes). This is what made me wonder about all of this.

The only thing making me doubtful is that on upstrokes, the string is passed against the weight of the hand and the string skipping transition back to the next upstroke is aided by the weight of the hand, and vice versa for downstrokes. Upstrokes have always seemed weaker to me and the crux of all of this depends on what you mentioned - the tendency of all guitarists to be more comfortable with downstrokes. I’ll try drilling the hell out of them and see what happens.

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#6

Thank you for replying! To clarify, I do not have any problems tremolo picking starting on a downstroke. I can do that comfortably without timing issues. What I would like to be able to do is to do so starting on a upstroke, in order to play some USX lines a la EJ or YJM.

I would also like to be able to play some metal double picking starting on a upstroke (I think its called double picking). Some lines work better than others but the timing issue is most apparent when tremolo picking on one note.

@tommo thank you for you suggestions, I will try to film my picking hand. Maybe I change the length of the pick stroke either above or under the string when starting on an upstroke. Its just weird that I can switch to starting on a downstroke without moving my hand position and the problem goes away. Might be a mental thing :slight_smile:

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#7

Ah I got it. That’s good that you’re already comfortable with the downstroke version.

I’m also a metal/rock player and a good 99% of the time lines start on a downstroke. So you’re saying the problem is that at those mid-tempos things get hairy? The double picking thing that bands like Cynic are known for is almost always on a downstroke. Is there any reason you want that upstroke version besides the Yngwie/Eric thing? I think it depends what comes before/after any given phrase and what makes the most sense within the song.

Sometimes I wish I just had a computer program that would tell me what to do in all of these situations lol.

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#8

I had two 7 year olds in the house this week who both wanted to “play the guitar”. Rather than doing a chord the simplest thing I could think of to show them was a muted low E string rock rhythm. They both did all upstrokes at first with no prompting. But… I don’t think “upstrokes” or “downstrokes” is why, I think it’s that different wrist motions feel different. And some of these may be more gettable for beginners.

We’ve seen in the table tapping tests that lots of players find that they’re fast with a flexion-extension tapping motion. For most people that motion isn’t usable with a typical arm setup because you’re coming right down on the string, pecking at it. But with a supinated arm position, you can go through the string more typically. Of course, the pecking is now playing an “upstroke”. But it still feels like tapping “down” toward a table top when you do it.

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#9

How fast was their tremolo picking? :smile:

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#10

If you find that computer program do tell me :slight_smile:

To be honest I don’t really need to be able to start on an upstroke, it just annoys me that I find it so difficult to do. I can play plenty of things that sound good already but I would like to be able to do the double picking with smooth string changes. I can do it starting on a downstroke but it involves some swiping and depending on the direction (ascending/descending) it does not feel super smooth all the time.

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#11

You know it didn’t even occur to me to try that, but that would have been cool. We just did rhythm.

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#12

I’ve already imagined you saying “alright kids, this is called ‘Now Your Ships are Burned’”

#13

Update: I’ve been paying extra attention to the picking hand today and it seems like I shorten the downstrokes when I start on an upstroke (probably to prepare for accentuating the upstrokes). It’s still a bit wonky but its getting better.

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