Unwanted Thumb/Index Finger Motions When Picking

Technique Critique
#1

I know this has been covered before several times regarding Martin Miller’s index and thumb movement in altering the arc of the pick as it crosses strings. My issue is more to do with single string picking.

I remember figuring this out as a way for me to execute “gallop picking 16ths” on the low string when I was 16, as I just couldn’t seem to do it from the wrist. Since then, it’s sort of subconsciously burnt into my picking technique.

I find that as soon as I pick faster, the thumb and index flexion and extension come in to some degree. The more I push myself, the more movement comes in, often growing larger and really affecting accuracy.

I guess the scuffs at start of this video demonstrate some of the inconsistency in my picking that I deal with periodically. At one point in the video I made a conscious effort to extend my index finger and hold it there, to avoid this thumb/index motion from occuring as much, but it doesn’t feel natural.

Here is a clip exaggerating the motion I am talking about, along with a clear example of the way I used it for 16th note galloping when I was younger (15 years ago now…wow).

What makes this a real issue for me is when it comes to pushing myself out of my comfort zone. It seems difficult to push my technique beyond its current capacity when the process of doing so changes the motions I’m using so substantially.

This has been a long-standing frustration in my playing and any input would be appreciated.

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#2

Hey there @kcyrowolf! I moved this to technique critique as it seems a better fit.

A quick suggestion from me would be to try a different pick grip, for example the “trigger grip” that Troy demonstrates here:

In my experience it’s harder to move the index and thumb joints from this setup. Additionally, it is different enough from your usual grip to give you more chances to suppress muscle memory.

It does not have to be a permanent change either! You can have this as a “secondary grip” when needed, or you can use it as a tool to get a feel for the new motion, which you can then try to recreate with the old grip.

#3

I’m not 100 % sure, but to me it looks like your motion is a DSX motion, and that you’re switching strings after upstrokes. This is not ideal, and indeed it looks like you have to perform a “jump” every time you switch strings. I think this can at least be part of the reason for the inconsistencies you experience! It wouldn’t surprise me if your finger movement is a result of the “incorrect” string changes as well. All in all I think the motion looks quite good!

The motion in the second video looks very inefficient, and if you can’t speed it up any more - indeed it is inefficient. I would use the motion in your first video instead.

#4

Thanks for that!

I will give the trigger grip another go. I personally find it quite cramped, but I agree that it definitely minimises thumb/index play.

Obviously switching up pick grips and motions can force you to take a bit of a hit to your current speed and/or accuracy.

Would you recommend taking this new, currently unfamiliar, grip and just break it down slowly and carefully to begin with?

The reason I ask is because it is often talked about pushing things to your limit and playing fast as soon as possible to determine efficiency of motion, but less mentioned is the actual stage of becoming familiar with the motion in the first place.

#5

in a nutshell: first verify that the motion can actually go fast. Only after that you can lower the speed a little (not too much) and clean it up.

#6

I’ve just gone over the new Testing Your Motions chapters in Pickslanting Primer (twice actually!) and found it super insightful, especially the case study footage. After testing my motions, it appears most of them clock in at the 210 BPM region, with Di Meola wrist motions as high as 240 BPM at a push.

I’m fully aware that I have had a strong tendency to stick to my guns and not “let go” and allow my hands to just experiment and find their own way of achieving fast motions, despite sloppiness. This has definitely held me back.

Here is a video of where I’m at today, with some very ropy playing, experimenting with DSX elbow/wrist and different pick grips.

I remember several years ago an old teacher of mine happened to recommend “Try picking as fast as you can on one string. Don’t think about technique, just observe what your body does to achieve fast motions.” The result was DSX elbow picking, with a locked wrist and my fingers sticking out aggressively.

Since then, I’ve revisited this and refined it a little bit, but ultimately disregarded it and kept chipping away with more of a DWPS form, as I always feel more comfortable with the side of my palm on the bridge, especially for muting. @Troy talks about this idea of wasting time trying to achieve what you think should be your “correct” motion, rather than working on what comes naturally. I am very guilty of this.

Today I’ve found the UWPS DSX elbow/wrist motion take over during experimentation. I can get some decent speeds, but I am also noticing various tension in my wrist, elbow and shoulder. (Especially in my choppy attempt at rapid strumming, where my wrist really locks up–which I’ve found at times actually creates a fairly consistent attack on down/up strokes.)

So, following on from @tommo’s advice: could this tension be looked as simply a part of the “random” nature of motor skill learning, that will likely lessen as my body continues to refine these motions, or is this something I should be very cautious about with regards to potential injury?

(Just to clarify, I’m talking about working this technique for casual bursts of time, not drilling through tension/discomfort for hours on end…)

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#7

Yes exactly. That moment at about :26 in your clip looks awesome. If we measure that, I have a feeling that’s about as fast as I personally ever pick. So you’re there. If it feels tensiony, you might just be trying too hard. What does that mean? Who knows, but when you’re new at something, you’re firing up everything, even muscles that aren’t needed.

Some people like @joebegly (also the subject of one of those case studies) have recommended loosening up on the pick grip as a way of tricking yourself not to flex everything too much.

The idea here is that you want to make attempts to try and discover that looseness and easyness. I don’t think it’s enough to say the tension will magically go away over time. You have to be searching for that feeling of easy, and noticing when you stumble upon it. Deliberately making changes like using less gripping force on the pick, or trying to think about relaxing unnecessary muscles (like the delts / shoulders, for example), might trigger it. Sometimes visualizing just certain body parts moving can help.

It’s clear on video that the motion is correct. The speed and smoothness of the attack look and sound like other correct elbow attempts we have filmed, like Joe’s. So you’re on the right track here, and I think the technique is essentially correct. Any remaining tension may be simply of the “over-try” variety. Maybe we’ll come up with more useful tricks to address this over time.

If you stumble across any, make note of it an let us know!

#8

Oh, one other thing I’d mention is that when we took John Taylor to the lab, even while hyperpicking at insane speeds, his delts were quiet. You can see this in the screenshot of the live EMG test:

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The shoulder (DELT) channel is almost dead. So what John is doing here is activating only the muscles necessary, and that’s one of the reasons he can do this for as long as he can. My guess is that this is a motor learning issue and not an issue of building up athletic strength at the gym. John has clearly done that, but as a counterexample, Anthony Martello in the original hyperpicking instructional is not hugely buff and hits similar speeds.

Ultimately, you’re trying to “figure out” how to move in a way that feels light and springy. Lots of brief trial and error attempts will probably reveal what that is. Keep us posted if you come up with any tests we can use!

#9

@Troy thanks for taking the time to respond, that’s some great advice.

I’ve found that the brachialis muscle in my picking arm will tense up when I switch to ‘fast picking’. It actually felt a bit tender the following day, which I’m certain is just some fatigue from going at it a bit too hard the previous day.

I’ll explore relaxing unnecessary muscle groups. Right now I feel like I’m relying on holding tension in my bicep and brachiali in order achieve my top speed.

#10

I just want to pop in here and second this bit. I talked myself into holding the pick so lightly for it to seem like it would magically shift in the breeze and not stick out and get caught on strings it needed to pass over!

Obviously that wasn’t actually happening, but it DID release a lot of tension and likely removed much unneeded muscle firing when trying to keep the touch so light.

#11

Well… bit of an update here (in just 3 days!).

I have continued with this elbow/wrist DSX motion and been experimenting with switching between eight notes with 16th bursts. The main idea was to try and maintain the same ‘fast’ picking motion throughout, and hopefully find a way to relax into it more.

I was very fortunate to have my first lesson with Martin Miller this afternoon and this proved to be quite a profound yet subtle revelation. He made me much more aware of some things I was lacking in my approach to chunking:

a) Consistent and accurate timing
b) Solid time feel - making sure I was always aware of which beat I was playing on
c) Isolating and focusing on specific finger patterns

These were things I was aware of, but not giving conscious effort to at all times when practicing. Anyway, enough rambling. Here is some rough Lydian noodling I shot before firing down the amp just to demonstrate where I’m currently at.

One thing Martin was able to advise on was approaching DWPS/USX without the excessive thumb movement I was experiencing. His advice was to simply take the motion I was already doing and very slightly supinate my forearm–extremely simple advice, yet very effective.
This totally threw my picking out initially, so his suggestion was to take the speed down to the point where the thumb can be controlled, and work up from there. This has already yielded results!

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