** Update** Mixing DDU and alternate for roll/drone patterns

Playing Technique
#1

I’ve been working on and off on rolls/arpeggios for a few years and when I play I tend to use two approaches (whether it is for 1nps or more scalar stuffs). I’ve been doing DDU things as well as strict alternate rolls, but separately.

The more I get into it I think that mixing the two approaches could yield to interesting patterns, because alternate vs DDU (or mini-sweep) have different dynamics and also to combine even and odd rhythmic motifs. It’s not necessary for Bluegrass stuffs, but for any style you can think of. I’m thinking Indian sarod players might do something similar, but I have no clue actually.

Anyway I have some hard time doing that seamlessly. I can do DDU and alternate stuffs separately, but mixing them together is causing me headache.

A basic example of this would be something like (example on A/D/G string):

G------d-----------
D----u—u---d-u—
A–d-------d-------

So it’s a 7 note patterns which is a basic roll (alternate) + DDU motif.
I can do that slow, but when increasing speed there’s a point where it all falls apart. There seems to be a mechanic pitfall that I can’t figure out.

How would you approach that ?

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#2

Any three-string pattern like this I would probably try alternate picking that first. Yes, this has an odd number of notes, which would cause the pattern to start over on an upstroke, and then a downstroke, and then an upstroke, and so on. But that’s actually really good exercise in learning what all these combinations feel like and getting them smooth.

In general, I find that the biggest challenge of economy type playing, as you’re pointing out, is switching between the various mechanics invisibly, so that you don’t hear unwanted accents. Then you can add the accents back, in a way that suits your musical intention, instead of having them forced on you by the different picking and string switching motions. To some extent this is necessary in any picking technique, even alternate. But it feels like more work to me in economy type playing. And then the whole “economy” aspect of it becomes a little suspect.

Ultimately, whatever works! If the “forced” accents happen to sound good on a particular phrase, then what sounds good is good!

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#3

Good to know that (even) you sense it that way.
That’s the main reason for me to focus on alternate and always sorted it out as some kind of weakness in economy in my picking.
Seems at least I’m not alone with that, eventhough i guess that players like Rick Graham seem to have nailed that completely (and it’s probably a good idea to work on it).
My personal impression has always been that the range of controlling accents is bigger when alternating compared to economy (at least for me), so this is kind of encouraging, cause due limited time I cannot focus on both.

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#4

Sure, pure alternate is an option here. But having the roll reversed (i.e alternate downstroke and upstroke for starting the pattern) is not what I prefer in the first place. Still very valid of course, more of a personal preference.

What I do like with the DDU pattern is that you can ‘snap’ the first string (rest stroke on the adjacent string) to deliver a specific accent. It’s not what you want all the time but in that specific scenario that’s what I’m look after.

But you’re right about ‘economy’ picking being hard to mix with other approach.

So I’ve been toying with the idea, using both alternate and ‘mixed’ approach. I tried to break down what is happening and why there is some articulation difficulty here.

Let’s focused on the 3 notes pattern on 2 strings, with the following options :

economy
-----d-u---d-u--
---d-----d------

alternate (crosspicking)
-----u-d---d-u--
---d-----u------

What I do find interesting is that, at least to me, the DDU-DDU pattern starts to be efficient at relatively high speed (to me that would be around 8th triplets at 160bpm), whilst the alternate DUD-UDU pattern starts to be challenging at that speed. (I guess I’m more inclined to DDU rather than alternate, so YMMV of course).

At the the same time that would be the opposite for the 3 strings roll pattern, which is more of a pure crosspicking thing. So common sense would tell me to combine best of both worlds, i.e. the most efficient pattern for the two distinct parts and is to me DDU + DUDU (eco + crosspicking). But actually that doesn’t work that way …

I’m thinking that, maybe more of a strict mechanical issue (which might be as well), there could be an ‘efficiency’ inconsistency/paradox in the mixed pattern, like having high gear and low gear on a single car, which explains why it feels awkward. OTOH a pure alternate approach indeed evens out the whole thing.

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#5

I hope I am not going too off topic, but this is precisely the problem I have in making something like your “Down around the world - Nylon Jazz” sound smooth (I confess that I have been practicing it on and off for a couple of years - and I’m still nowhere close to your execution! But then I should remember you are good at guitar :wink: ). I think that short etude is a really good test of DWPS mastery - it contains a lot of picking combinations that are difficult to keep in time (and difficult for accent control):

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#6

The dwps world is its own animal. The timing isn’t always perfect where the sweeps are concerned, and not every note is picked identically as far as attack, even when great players like EJ or Joscho Stephan do it. But it’s one of those things where when you do it right, you either don’t really notice these differences, or you do notice them but they work in favor of the line and sound good. That’s probably the case here, the sweeps are a little rushed and many of the downstrokes are aggressive. And then of course the pull-offs lay back as softer notes. But that snappy poppy sound is the vibe, as it is in the Gypsy style. As @blueberrypie points out, if attack varies for whatever mechanical reason, maybe that works for a particular phrase. Why fight it? If it sounds good, it is good.

On the flip side, one of the things players sometimes do to completely eliminate all of that and become technically ‘invisible’ is to play very softly. Because one way to blend sweeping and alternate better is to use less physical force. That’s its own vibe and sounds great. But it’s not a substitute for, say, what Andy Wood does with alternate where certain notes pop and others lay back. The invisible economy types almost never have that sound.

Could you? Probably, I guess. But if one technique has a thing right out of the gate, and another you have to work forever to get it, and maybe not quite nail it, then that’s as good a reason as any to learn all these different techniques.

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#7

So I’ve been working on more crosspicking lately and I got back to it with crosspicking / full alternate.- as @Troy suggested.

So we have that 7/8 roll pattern :

B------------u---|----------d---|---
G----u-d---d---d-|--d-u---u---u-|---
D--d-----u-------|u-----d-------|---

… which is interesting because it alternates u/d as the 1st stroke, something I’m not very used to (I have that strong habit of starting everything with a downstroke)

It’s basically a variation of the bluegrass forward roll pattern, with a major difference that it does not have string skipping. Because of that it’s way easier actually (at least to me) and I can play that one pretty good and comfortably at a decent speed (around 230 / 8th notes or 115 if you consider 16th).

But the basic forward roll still eludes me …

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