USX stickiness problems

Technique Critique
#1

Happy Easter, Everyone!
I’m stuck in my USX fight a little and I don’t know what to change. I’ve tried countless variations of this technique recently and I can play some pretty good sounding USX lick on a good day. This is a non cherry picked clip from a bad day though.

Sticky pickstrokes are my main problem. I have no idea what to change, I’m clearly doing an USX motion, I do have a downward pickslant and a little bit of edge picking. I can’t find the source. Sometimes it’s on ups, sometimes on downs and sometimes on both. It feels like every pickstroke has to lift something really heavy. I start tensing up my thumb, I break E and B strings really often when practicing it and the attack doesn’t sound right.
It annoys me even more, because I almost have a DBX motion which is basically the same thing with more wrist extension on downs. It escapes on both ends, but stickiness renders it unusable too.

Here’s a normalized dry input sample for my DSX, the peak was around -12db before normalization.

USX, peak was around -1,5db before normalizing, same guitar, same gain settings.

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#2

Really interesting topic! We’re in the same boat actually. My USX is stupid unreliable, sometimes it just works and sometimes it’s super sticky the way you describe. Most of the times it needs a lot of warming up to become usable.

At the moment I have concluded that it’s as simple as that when the basic motion is really solid rotation (I’m using rotational forearm for my main motion) most licks seem to work, but as soon as I start to work on DSX and other motions, my basic picking starts to become confused. So for now I have decided to not work on anything else for a while.

Your picking on the other hand sounds really good and from hearing these licks, it seems reliable. It looks like rotation but a bit of wrist as well. From what I can tell your attack is really hard and that always comes with some resistance. Is this your max speed? My max speed always lowers when I incorporate the wrist to the motion. Maybe a more pure rotational motion would be even quicker.

Interesting to hear the two last clips. Is the first one DBX or DSX? If DSX it’s very good sounding swiping. Sounds great. Second clips is really loud. Which one do you prefer?

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#3

I think it may be a motion issue, upstrokes and downstrokes not being 100% mirror images of each other. Stickiness shouldn’t happen if the trajectory and pick angle do match, right?

I can go much faster when it comes to high e tremolo, my forearm motion itself is very fast in general, other details spoil the bigger picture. This is some gypsy form playing from a few months back, it sounds ok because of overdrive compression but the string changes didn’t really feel effortless and I couldn’t maintain right attack on every string.

I don’t think there’s such thing possible in guitar playing, even if it looks like pure rotation. It produces an arc which doesn’t give you any capabilities when it comes to string switching. The wrist has to be active to break that arc and make the pick hit a different string. Same for pure deviation. I’m talking about a scenario where elbow/upper arm doesn’t do tracking ofc.

It’s my old DSX, there’s no swiping. Position shifting to facilitate 4nps ascending and economy picking descending. I prefer it because I can do it well, pure DSX sucks though, that’s why I’m trying to learn USX/DBX. The second one is really sticky and forced.

#4

I think you’re right. Also most times when it feels sticky the motion hasn’t been pure and relaxed in the first place.

Ok that was amazing playing! Hard to see or hear the effortless-lessness you’re talking about. :wink: Of course I can see the problem of not having any muting capability but all in all that way of playing was a joy to listen to and look at. Maybe if you would straighten out the wrist a bit but keep the motion you could get the best of both worlds. But it’s not easy, as soon as you straighten the wrist you loose a lot of the power that the rotation gives.

Well to me the style you use in the instagram video looks like mostly rotation. Sure there might be a tiny bit of wrist motion but the power looks like it comes from the rotation and that’s what’s important to me. When I play and it feels sticky it’s often the fact that the wrist is trying to “help out” and “correct” angles and stuff which I guess results in inconsistencies in motion and not having the mirror image of up and down stroke that you mention.

That sounded great but I guess a little problematic to use.

#5

I think this is it, but I’m eagerly awaiting a reply from someone with more experience.

Since you have a working motion, I’m guessing you’ve left the pick configuration alone. You can probably alter the amount of edge-picking and pick slant to make the USX smooth, but then the DSX motion will either catch or have so much edge-picking you’re just scratching the string. I suppose that’s the best way to diagnose an incompatible pair of motions?

#6

I find a more extended grip helps this issue. With a more extended grip, you can also experiment with bending the thumb, to control edge picking and get the up and down strokes to be smooth, if needed.

I find with more compact trigger grips, it feels sticky. So I’d suggest experimenting with a more extended trigger style grip and also with wrapping the thumb, if needed.

As a side note, some picks can feel stickier than others. I don’t know enough about pick design to advise on that, I just know I don’t have this issue when I use a jazz 3. I do with some other picks.

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#7

@qwertygitarr
The trick on the insta vid is that I played very lightly from b string onwards to minimize the stickiness, it sounds ok overdriven, would sound funny on clean. Also, outside string changes are tougher for me, I find it hard to keep the pick above the string long enough so it flies above the string instead of swiping.
@lars @jptk
I’ve tried tons of configurations and they all have the same stickiness problem. Here’s a 3 finger grip take from over a year ago:

#8

I agree 100% with this assessment. A lot of times I find stickiness comes from the combination of pick type, the amount of edge picking used (or lack of), the amount of pick depth used in the string, how much force you use etc. i use extended grips particularly when I need to feel subtle things, which I feel is incredibly useful in some of the economy stuff I do.

@adamprzezdziecki one thing that really sticks out to me, is how audible your guitar is when unplugged. I would describe my own picking as sounding aggressive when plugged in, yet if I were to play unplugged like you are, I would barely hear myself. To me, it sounds like you are hitting hard and using a lot of the flat top and bottom of the pick, and more of the pick (pick depth) to hit the strings. A little more edge picking and only trying to hit the top hemisphere of the strings may go a long ways in alleviating the stickiness. But of course going too far will make you glide over too much, and rob you attack/accent when you want it, so it’s a fine balance. Also it looks like the rotation is exaggerated a bit, but that’s more of a speed thing, and you don’t have that issue clearly.

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#9

By extended grips do you mean more wrist or more index extension?

#10

@jptk may have a different definition for it than I do, but what I mean by it, is between which finger joint of the index finger and thumb you grip the pick. When I see your hand in these videos, you have the pick nestled closer to your second knuckle joint (between the first and second, a lot of people do this including Troy). This is apparent by the little visible space between the thumb and first finger. Holding the pick there has certain advantages. It’s very stable, tends to put focus the wrist a bit, but it also positions the hand in maybe a way closer to the string plane that isn’t as advantageous for certain things, or maybe limits certain subtle movements.

Likewise, Holding the pick further down closer between the first finger joint and pad, gets you other advantages talked about above. I believe this is the spot players like Gilbert, and malmsteen gravitate towards, malmsteen using more of the pad. I feel these grips tend to give a bit more nuanced feel to the picking, almost like you are scripting something, and greater flexibility of the hand in to the string plane. You can allow a bit more of the pick to stick out with out hitting more of the string. The other side is the pick may not feel as stable initially as you are used to. although this is all just my experience and opinion so take it for what it is.

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#11

Yes this is what I also meant by extending the grip.
I usually have the pick close to the first joint of the index finger, but not past it. I also don’t have much thumb overlap so if I need to adjust edge picking amount, it just takes a slight bend of the thumb. Too much thumb overlap and bending the thumb will make little difference.

I think having the pick further up on or past the first joint can be good for wrist styles, but I found it didn’t work so well with forearm and wrist blends.

If you look at some of the usx forearm and wrist players, you do tend to see extended grips matched with this style. There are always exceptions of course.

I do think this is key to solving the problem and maybe trying different picks too. I find there are certain picks that don’t work so well with this mechanic and you almost have to let them wear down a bit before it feels smooth. The two that worked best for me were jazz 3 and Dunlop flow.

#12

Definitely more positive pick point

#13

Having had a look at your playing on your instagram I got to say that your playing is some of the best I’ve ever heard. And it seems to be all DSX. So I went back to this quote and find it very puzzling. Now I need to find out what it is that sucks about DSX to you.

#14

It’s likely the same reason anyone would say that, and that’s because he finds it limiting in some way, just like you have mentioned you find your USX limiting in certain ways, even though most would tell you that you have nothing to complain about.

#15

Well yes that’s probably a core reason but it would be interesting to hear Adams take on it. To my ears there is a limitlessness to his playing that makes his statement special.

When it comes to myself I also have my beginnings in DSX and have now moved towards going all USX. And when my USX works (which is does not always, hence why this thread is interesting) I can feel a limitlessness that I NEVER felt with DSX. So maybe we share similar experiences about DSX but the difference is that I could never play so freely with it as Adam.

#16

About the grip, I don’t think I can do that. Most of the time such pickgrip is used by people who have this sticking-out-looking thumb like Oparin and Yngwie. It tenses me up, I need more thumb overlap like Lukather.

@qwertygitarr
I’d say that DSX without a helper motion is good for very specific things like certain Gambale licks, but for “normal” stuff like metal rhythm playing or funky guitar parts it sucks. That’s the short version.
I’d also say that most great players are either USX, DBX or DSX + helper motion. If I go through a short list of some of my fav players (Yngwie, Marty Friedman, George Benson, Joe Pass, Albert Lee, Steve Morse, Paul Gilbert, Greg Howe, SRV, Steve Vai, Jason Becker) I can’t find a SINGLE ONE that’s pure DSX. Even McLaughlin uses a forearm helper from time to time. Being that DSX only guy places you in a really shitty position when it comes to learning, simply because most of the existing musical material is not compatible with your motion. That’s been the most frustrating thing about this instrument for me for the past 10 years. I’ve got pretty good at translating certain stuff to my own technique but there’s a limit to what you can do and I hit it pretty quickly. I can make up my own licks but I still want to learn from others. I love learning my favourite music note for note.
One more thing that’s not talked about very often, USX has better swiping capabilities because of which parts of the fingers mute the strings.

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#17

I would at least try to play around with the grip a little. It may feel awkward at first but I think it’s well worth it to have that flexibility and tool in your back pocket.

I honestly think that past a certain speed and where on the neck you are playing, true DBX is just an illusion and swiping happens to various degrees regardless of how well you can clear strings on either stroke at moderate tempos. I also don’t think that USX really has that much of a swiping advantage unless you find it impossible to mute all the strings at all with your palm and fretting index finger using DSX. I think I find swiping harder with USX.

The honest truth is that nothing you try to change that is different from how you have normally been playing for the last number of years is going to feel comfortable, it might just feel counterproductive. That doesn’t mean there won’t be benefit to it eventually.

#18

@adamprzezdziecki
Good to hear someone put words on a problem that I experienced as well. I can really relate to everything you said.

I’m not sure if this is universally true but it’s true for me. Swiping with USX just works and swiping with DSX feels totally clunky and like hitting a wall.

That’a interesting! Since swiping with DSX is always results in swiping a string that’s thicker than the sounding one, it’s much harder for me to keep the swiping quiet. But maybe it has to do with the angle of the motion. A steep DSX motion that is rest strokes against the thicker strings might be a problem.

#19

By swiping being easier I mean that you can use all of your finger’s flesh to mute the higher string while in DSX mode you have to use the tip of the finger which I find hard to do for non stationary licks like playing a descending scale. PG lick is ok.

#20

It doesn’t really take all that much to mute out the string with the tip of the index finger. To me this kind of leads back to the sheer amount of force used to hit the strings especially if you are breaking both b and e strings frequently.