When I watch videos of Guthrie Govan, he almost always has no space between his index finger and thumb. In other words, it doesn’t look like he’s holding the pick like an OK sign.
I’ve been studying his picking and he doesn’t seem to have space between his thumb and index finger when manipulating the strong picking nuances of attack, perhaps.
However, if I’m not conscious of it, the gap between my fingers will gradually open up. It also makes it difficult to press the pick down as lightly as a feather.
I really want to learn this, but I still don’t understand why there should be no gaps between the fingers. I’m working on this with the preconception that it’s the right thing to do because he’s doing it.
help me please…
It looks as if he curls his index finger quite a lot. Others will have more in-depth explanations - but just because it works for Guthrie does not mean that is how you should do it. There are SO many different ways to do it ‘right’.
It is a very personal thing.
What matters is finding the right way for you to pick with a relaxed hand. Which means you’re in the right place asking the right group of people.
thank you. I was always trying to keep my index finger in a small bend, which I think is the opposite of relaxing and causes inflammation in the index finger joint.
Or, in another way, I thought he held the pick shallowly without bending his index finger too much, which would make his hold on the pick less stable.
I really want to know why he can play for long periods of time in a relaxed state and without any pain. Is there anyone here on the forums playing the same way?
Good observation of his grip but I wouldn’t worry about emulating said gap, there’s a lot of variation between people’s hand size & shape. I doubt GG, or any great player, got where they are by emulating another player’s grip 100% to the T.
I don’t know if this is going to help, but my primary technique uses little to none gap between the thumb and the index finger. I place the pick at the index knuckle right above the finger nail which works for me. If i place the pick at the ‘‘same part’’ as the finger nail (sorry, i don’t know what it’s actually called, i hope you understand anyways ) i experience the same thing as you when the gap gradually opens up.
Firstly, I love Guthrie. He’s just incredible. That said, I don’t think he’s tension free though. Technically no one is because even holding a pick requires some. We’re probably talking about the “bad” kind though. I think Guthrie has a little of that, when he picks at his fastest speeds. I’ve read posts where Tom’s pointed this out and also there was that controversial video that Anton put out indicating the same thing. I’m not remotely tension free either (though I’m improving) and I certainly wasn’t in my younger years when I played in a band. Dedicated practice can improve things, even allowing us to get better while still playing with more tension than we need to. People clapped when I played my solos. But then again, people at shows are nearly always under the influence of various amounts of alcohol and they clapped when I royally f**ked my solos up too lol!
I suspect that’s what we see with Guthrie, where his skill and work ethic allow him to get by with some excess tension at the high speeds. Would he be ‘better’ with less tension? I don’t know. He’s already awesome. There are probably some nitpicky things like swiping/sync that may or may not be present if he changed his technique. The law of diminishing returns is gonna rear its head at some point.
Now, does this mean we should be ok with tension in our own playing? Probably not, because none of us are Guthrie and we need all the help we can get I used to say things to my classical guitar teacher when he’d scold me for something I saw John Williams do, citing Williams so if he could, why couldn’t I? My teacher would just smirk and say, “Well, you’re not John Williams.”
Depending on your chosen technique you’ll need the pick at a particular place, hence it might have to be far away (extended fingers), close (folded fingers, etc.).
GG is a great musician, but I don’t even know if he is USX, DSX, etc.; is there an authoritative summary on him?
I would have first heard Guthrie in about 2005. I read a lot of Guitar Techniques magazine back then, and I was always most interested in Guthrie’s lessons. I bought the DVDs of his performances at Cornford and Tone Merchants clinics. I ordered a CD copy of Erotic Cakes after it was released in 2006, but my order was never fulfilled by Cornford Records. I bought the album again when it was made available legally on MP3, again when it was made available legally in lossless format and again when it was finally reissued on CD.
Guthrie is absolutely incredible, his playing left a huge impression on me. I’ve bought all of The Aristocrats albums, but I’d have to be honest and admit that I preferred Erotic Cakes and his early demos.
I remember noticing the tension in Guthrie’s picking hand and the radial offset in his setup right away. I’ve always felt his picking hand looked tense during his fastest playing. I felt it wouldn’t be comfortable for me, and I didn’t want to emulate it. I know Anton’s videos ruffled some feathers, but I largely agreed with his points.
To be completely honest, I was never awed by Guthrie’s picking technique. For me, it was the lines, the phrasing, the vibrato, the articulations, the note shaping, the tone, the personal signatures, etc, etc, etc. I don’t mean to imply that his picking technique isn’t great, it is (obviously). I just never thought it was nearly as remarkable as other elements of his playing, and I never held it as an ideal to work towards.
It’s entirely possible that this was a personal bias, I had already worked out my RDT mixed escape form back then, and I was alternate picking Gilbert and Morse stuff.
I’d like us to be a little cautious with this. There are a great many things that are stressed in guitar pedagogy that simply do not reflect the reality of what great players actually do.
Agreed, dogma abounds in aspects of classical guitar (but not all aspects) and I could’ve given more context here. It’s been over 20 years since I had this experience. My teacher was not wrong There were fingering choices I was attempting because I’d seen Williams do it. He sounded, of course, flawless in his performance. Mine needed work, so he was suggesting I shouldn’t assume because John Williams does something doesn’t mean that’s what I should be doing. Especially if other aspects of the technique suffer do the parts I was trying to mimic.
And I think that sort of applies here too. I know that imitation has produced some great results for you, Tom. People like me with less than great sensory perception can sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture though. We may try to do a certain thing one of our heroes does but be unaware of some other aspect we’re doing incorrectly
Guthrie’s technique is far better than “good enough.”
Guthrie is capable of a few different movements, which he uses situationally based on intuition. Generally, he favours an RDT based primary DSX movement for single note playing, capable of some mixed escape.
The tension in the grip and the radial offset in the position limits the mobility in his wrist, and he intuitively shifts to elbow based DSX for his fastest picking. Guthrie’s forearm muscles are well defined and visible, and the activation of his brachioradialis muscle (an elbow flexor) when he picks at his fastest is obvious.
Guthrie is capable of DBX, possibly both the Andy Wood style 9-0-2 and the David Grier style 10-0-3, but his DBX form isn’t totally robust. He also frequently uses his fingers/thumb while picking at lower to moderate speeds.
What is special about Guthrie’s picking form is his his facility with dynamics and tone production.
This I’ve no problem with, and I largely agree with it.
I’m the last person to tell anybody that they shouldn’t imitate great players. I absolutely maintain that if you can learn to imitate their methods, you can learn to imitate their results.
However, that’s a big “if”, and I would strongly caution anybody against pursuing any player’s technique to the exclusion of other possibilities, or to the detriment of their own playing. This can often happen if we have an incomplete or incorrect understanding of what that player is actually doing.
I was more referring to the idea that John Williams would have been better doing what your teacher recommended. It’s sometimes implied (or explicitly stated) by teachers that great players would be better if they did what the teachers prescribe.
I don’t disagree at all; I’ve seen it directly in some lessons.
thank you everyone. I’ve been doing trial and error since yesterday and today.
I feel like he is holding the pick by cradling the curved part of the upper right head of the pick with the tip of his index finger.
But it’s inconvenient for me.
I have a problem where the first knuckle of my index finger touches the strings, muting the sound. If I hold the pick too long, the pick will flex and become unstable.
It is incorrect to say that the pick bends. This means that the pick will succumb to the tension of the string. I can’t pinch with enough force with my fingers, so the long reach of the pick makes it very unstable.
Does anyone else pick with their thumb and index finger tightly pressed together? The first knuckle of my index finger still touches the surface of the string, which feels strange.
) i experience the same thing as you when the gap gradually opens up.
I used to say things to my classical guitar teacher when he’d scold me for something I saw John Williams do, citing Williams so if he could, why couldn’t I? My teacher would just smirk and say, “Well, you’re not John Williams.”