What is Jazz to you? Or is there an absolute definition?

Harmony & Theory
#32

Improv still requires some kind of guideline or constrains to work within.

It’s why the second Viennese’s school went from free atonality to Schoenberg’s 12 tone method in short order it was nearly impossible to create completely atonal music with out some kind of constraint. Humans always seek some kind of guiding principal or “center” to navigate back to and that ended up with atonal pieces trending toward some kind of key center.
Ironically in about 2 decades this atonality that was going to free the composer descended into some of the most rule bound music to the point a computer could compose these pieces as everything was serialized.

I’m of the opinion that sounds that are “foreign” to a listener come off as exciting and what is especially going to draw them in are going to be the most exotic elements of the music to that particular listener. This is why jazz constantly evolved styles, bebop, modal, post bop, fusion, smooth, etc. Anytime a style becomes too familiar aka people figure out the pattern and it becomes predictable (the inverse of blues which is almost built on the predictability of its harmonic and chordal progressions).

Someone who doesn’t listen to extreme metal is going to be wide eyed the first time they hear the drumming or the harsh vocals.

Someone who doesn’t listen to rap is going to have a hard time keeping up with the flurry of lyrics and the subtle intricacies of rhythm at play and how fast things are being said (I think this is a primary complaint of older audiences when it comes to rap) Conversely someone who primarily listens to rap may have a hard time with music that is harmonically or melodically complex. I think this is why you see a lot of diametrical opposition between the prog crowd and the rap crowd.
RIP DOOM

Someone who doesn’t listen to jazz isn’t going to be used to some of the extended harmonies that are used. (some of these used to be not so uncommon in pop/rock music in the post vocal jazz age but as we have drifted further from that era have become less common)

Someone who doesn’t listen to shoegaze/ambient/minimalist music isn’t going to be used to listening to music primarily for timbral and textural aspects.

A personal anecdote would be the first time I heard the solo in King Crimson’s “21st Century Schizoid Man” is was jarring and frightening because it’s atonal it’s not what a listener accustomed to the pentatonic, major/minor, modal sound of rock guitar leads is expecting. It smacks you in the side of the head.

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#33

He seemed to be really funny—and he had perfect pitch as well!

Here is his book, I had no idea that the jazz cats read it… although hundreds of pages seem to be missing. Actually, somebody surely loaded this entire book into notation software to play the examples, etc.?

https://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Melodic-Patterns-Nicolas-Slonimsky/dp/1258454165

So @WhammyStarScream I concluded that if I hit my head and wanted to be a jazz cat, I’d go down the microtonal path, as I could argue, twelve tones are not enough!

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#34

Thats what I was thinking and outloud wondering about it, perhaps it’s just finding that new hit of interestingness, so it gives you that listening pleasure when you’re quite dulled to classical harmony. Very much like various drugs or experiences, people have to go more extreame to get a high. Some things people do to feel alive, I’m like, naa… I’m alright, like wingsuit flying. I’m sure it’s great when you get into it, but I’m content to listen to a bit of hard rock, you know, safe music where only a few people die, drummer exploding randomly etc… you can keep that hardcore Jazz with a high deathrate and have fun.

#35

I typically think most music if not all can be related to our voice and language.
Call n response for example, or a scale having a set alphabet to talk with.

A lot of language gets modified over time, lets take Ya’ll for example, I don’t think it’s classic English, but it’s an interpretation that works, could that be classed as Jazz? Yo mann, hey bro, sup ma G LOL Some people HATE that type of non classical talk, but it becomes it’s own thing. To the point of not acually understanding what someone’s saying. Isn’t that the base concept of Jazz? A freedom in communication. And it will sound like nonsense to some people.

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#36

Wouldn’t that mean you can’t play Jazz unless you know exactly what you’re going to say?
I always felt it was like kind of shredding away with what you do know, to get out something you’ve never truly expressed before, tho of course whole reason I posted this is cus idk what it truly is. I for whether reason don’t think Jazz is a set thing tho, it’s not 1 + 1 = 2, and you can learn that, it’s 1 + 1 = 3, and lets hear your interpretation of that concept. So it’s like trying to catch a fly with chopsticks, the second you clamp down the fly has, flied.

Our dog’s name is Jasper, or, Jazz, he’ll bark at the most random times, and I know he’s doing it for a reason, but I’m often thinking wtf are you barking at. He drives me insane, just like some Jazz music.

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#37

You’re missing one of the fundamental aspects of jazz. Which is that it swings.

No swing, no jazz.

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#38

From Britannica:

jazz, musical form, often improvisational, developed by African Americans and influenced by both European harmonic structure and African rhythms. It was developed partially from ragtime and blues and is often characterized by syncopated rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, varying degrees of improvisation, often deliberate deviations of pitch, and the use of original timbres.

Any attempt to arrive at a precise, all-encompassing definition of jazz is probably futile.

The last sentence says it all.

With Jazz considered the one, true American musical art form - the fact that it can be pretty much anything it wants seems rather appropriate.

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#40

Do you know of any good videos on swing I can watch?

#41

Lets say Vinnie added some swing to his playing, would he be Jazz?

The most hardcore Jazz player of all time with no swing.

I really love his playing. He’s going for it, speed or not, just going for it. Got that energy. And ofcourse knew how to compose. If he posted on here like that I’m sure there would be a lot of love, serious ability.

I’ve not heard a song by him without guitar. But this is something

Coming up with this stuff isn’t easy. I think there is genuine stuff in there that is musical. The whole thing is musical. Just not highlighted in the right way. You can turn that into a proper solo if you vibe with it. I love it. It’s overtaking the background. It’s so aggressive relative to the background chords.

#42

Nope, he would not.

This is an introductory video on the topic but… you can’t just pick it up from a video. You need to play with other jazz players and listen to them to actually pick it up.

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#44

What do you mean nope he would not?

#45

I think I know it’s jazz when I hear it, that recognition comes from a wide range of elements and one’s personal experience. Music is a transient entity that triggers emotions which are very subjective, I would be sceptical of any definition other then treat it as a personal opinion of the person expressing themselves. Having said that I’d pay close attention to people that know more than me, if I’m lucky to recognize it.

#46

Jazz has a specific vocabulary that’s developed over a century of being played.

You can’t just take another style of music, add some swing, and plug it into a jazz group. It doesn’t work.

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#47

This may be why I am drawn to synths and sequences as well as ambient style stuff. It is just unpredictable when you can randomize notes and drum machine rhythms via randomized sequencing of the elements programmed in. I like to listen to stuff that just sounds really nice, analog bass synths sounds epic, but at the same time that randominess adds to the freshness. However to much of this I feel can drain my serotonin, and the next few days I feel super depressed. So if I go into my EDM phase I have to keep the listening to short bursts, or it will drop me like a bad habit. And no I don’t do the drugs that encompass these genres.

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#48

Re: repetition and predictability.

The songwriting has everything to do with it. A brilliant example is Baba O’Riley. One of the first songs where the synth/sequencer is the primary instrument.

That’s repetitive beyond belief……but remains captivating 50+ years later.

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#49

I don’t see jazz as a genre per se rather than a way of playing.

Groove + tension + improvisation. That’s frequently enough for me to consider something “jazzy”.

#50
#51

It’s jazz.

Go back, pay your dues, listen to the music from Charlie Parker onwards. That’s jazz. There’s not more concise way to define it than that.

#52

I will listen to more, if you can post any good examples I’ll listen :slightly_smiling_face:
Much easier to listen to others examples than find my own. And exposes me to stuff I’d probably never find myself. If you could point out what to listen out for too?

It’s titled be bop, sounds very Jazzy to me, fast lines in a rythem, and I notice a lot of lines don’t go to a crescendo, they kind of fizzle out? Almost like that line wasn’t planned and landed on a note that is wanting more, or on the edge of resolution. And even if you say I’m an idiot and get pissed acually helps, I remember stuff by exposing my ignorance and told off in a way much better than just looking at random videos. Really does help me learn n remember

To me it really sounds like shredding lines that aren’t quite complete, and lead you waiting for more. Almost like the whole tone scale, it’s there, has a feel, but it’s not quite finished yet. Even if it lands on the key note, it’s done in a way thats like passing the spotlight to someone else you know? Like leaning on the edge of a cliff, you don’t know when or if you’ll fall.
Perhaps is shredding edging? lol

#53

My current understanding is, Jazz is …

And those dots say it all.

Jazz, is, …
perhaps whatever you make of it? Your own expression in that space? Jazz is an open space? But I think waiting for a reaction.
Or like some have said, is it a set vocabulary? A language? I really do feel that it being a set of licks and scales or even rhythms, isn’t what Jazz is, thats why I say Jazz is …

But like many said, you know it when you hear it. What are you hearing?

To me I think Jazz is shredding trying to express your inner voice in that moment.
A burst of energy that is free from scales or chords yet ofcourse influenced by the culture n music you grew up with. It’s like a child having a tantrum. Just slightly more organized. Kids will have a tantrum and then wait for a reaction, that sounds like jazz to me…

I think it’s two people, even yourself alone chucking stuff out there and waiting for a reply, with the main concept being trying to connect and communicate. It’s that effort in trying to connect. Thats what Jazz is to me atm. Listened to a bunch of the songs posted n my own efforts looking into it. To me it’s that. If I’m way off course tell me. Perhaps it’s that enjoyment of not acually quite getting there. An enjoyment of the initial effort itself?