What is Jazz to you? Or is there an absolute definition?

Harmony & Theory
#1

So I’ve got my own idea of what Jazz is, but it’s explained in so many ways that you can second guess yourself and perhaps my idea of Jazz is not it?

Whats your explanation of Jazz? O r the definition you know?

To me it’s not about a scale or a lick, it’s playing whats in your head with an energy that may very well hit out of key notes due to the expression and feeling overriding your focus on staying in a set pattern or key.

I feel it’s about keeping with the beat and the energy of the song and even the key of the song, but at any time you feel you can go out of key, or out of beat, based on how you feel in that moment. So in some ways it’s not improvisation within a key, it’s improvisation within the mood, what all the other players are syncing to and your own bursts of energy out of that. So it’s not random, or certain types of scales. It’s basically bursts of creative energy that may or may not be in key or rythem.

Do you think thats a good interpretation? Or am I totally missing the point? lol

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#2

I think it’s a great definition; the genre is a highly improvisational fusion of classical harmony and blues rhythms; it’s its own thing but it’s everyone’s thing too. Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Wayne Shorter, Thelonious Monk… oh there’s so many musicians… Joe Pass, Pat Martino.

Jazz rocks.

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#3

Something I’ve wondered about for awhile is babies babbling, so when they kind of say a word but it’s a jumbled mess. But keep going. Like the Shawn Lane method of playing a fast mess and slowly cleaning it up.

I think babbling is the way we all learned to talked. So Perhaps Jazz is the first thing a beginner should learn? Funny cus it’s typically thought as the hardest form of music, I think it might acually be the most intimate and direct way to acually learn to talk on the guitar tho.

Posted about this awhile ago, Obviously you need a word or phrase you’re aiming at, but just like Jazz, it’s that constant drive and willingness to make mistakes that allows your brain to acually cut away the nonsense and create a clear expression. As far as I’m aware we’re all born with massive ammounts of connections in the brain, and as we adapt to our environment, the brain is acually removing connections to create a logical set of connections that let us preform actions at will better. Like cutting away at a stone to create a sculpture.

So perhaps you could say Jazz is a way to chuck a load of energy and ideas out there and hold onto the ones you were after.

Jazz is an exercise, a practice in becoming competent in expressing your personality in a true form. But also valid in all it’s mistakes. And thats the beauty of it, a being reaching out. I’m just babbling my ideas here lol so perhaps not.

#4

Would this be a good concept of Jazz?

Not playing pre practiced licks or moves, just acually going for your inner intention and not being afraid of the mistakes. That making it very hard to do. But only because you’re scared of the judgment of others. Or perhaps even yourself.

I’ve noticed some of the most competent people I’ve seen are very humble and down to earth, probably a personality trait that allows for making mistakes and learning from them.

I think bruce is a good example of Jazz in martial arts, his philosophy was taking away stuff that didn’t work and only keeping the stuff that did, not sticking to a certain style but incorporating it all and practicing to the point of second nature, so you can essentially talk with your body. But still I’m wondering is that Jazz? Like for example would us talking with our mouths be classed as Jazz? We’re all competent in it, and use it to express our inner thoughts, but it seems relatively structured to what would be know as Jazz music, I’ve heard a fair ammount and sometimes it sounds like a mess. Then so are most conversations I’ve had in my life lol

A bit of a mess trying to communicate a feeling. Or idea.

#5

I mean, even a guy like Allan Holdsworth had sequences and patterns he’d use all the time, and his playing was also rarely actually outside, it just sounded weird because the harmony was also weird. haha But he wasn’t a standard issue jazz guy.

What you’re talking about almost sounds a bit like free jazz, or like you’re heading in that direction, at least.

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#6

Well like now, I’ve got some preprogrammed words I’ll say, like man, I use that a lot, but it’s used in many different context like you say with Allan’s licks and the background being different. So I’m probably being stupid with the no pre learned idea, but I think you understand what I’m going for, bits and sections combined in the moment to create words and phrases that make sense and if you not carefull you’ll nit hitt all the corre t notes.

It might be that my current focus on just the major scale is tricking me into believing I’m playing notes at will and not pre practiced lines, But I do think I can acually play un practiced lines that pop up in my head, or at least I’m getting there, that in itself could be classed as pre practiced stuff, the humming in my mind, going to far into it gets into freewill. Tho Idk what free Jazz is, perhaps I am describing that. I’ll look it up. I’m really not that educated on music. I’m a total noob honestly on a fair ammount of theory and classification side of it, I know a decent ammount and enough to understand the overall concepts and ideas, talking the talk n walking the walk are to different things tho, I don’t truly understand much of anything in life yet alone music. Looking at it is free jazz a kind of mess? And regular jazz more structured, I’m learning as I go man. Going to listen to some.

I guess if we go to far into that will get into free will vs learned combined patterns that seem random because there are so many options.

I saw a live stream not to long ago that had random visuals on screen and random playing on the piano, but with some flowing lines in there, wish I could find it again.

One other thing thats been in my mind is windchimes, my mum has one outside her house, when I sit next to it, it’s random, but sometimes comes out with really cool lines. Great way to find inspiration. I think it might be in the pentatonic scale tho? So what do you think that could be classed as? Wind jazz? lol Sometimes I’ve farted and went, oh that was musical lol! Proper wind jazz.

Do you need free will to have Jazz?

And I know I can just Google all this stuff, but it doesn’t stick unlike when I interact with people on these topics.

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#7

All jokes aside I define jazz the way that supreme court justice defined obscenity.

I know it when I hear it.

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#8

Is that because it’s unpredictable?

What I’m getting from this video is it’s basically lost it’s original definition? How Jazzy.
Jazz was so Jazz it became not Jazz. lol perhaps thats a good definition.
Jazz is like a box of chocolates, you know the rest…

Perhaps the true vibe of Jazz is what we don’t yet understand, or have compete control over. So that makes it different for everyone depending on your understanding. A lot of math seems quite Jazzy to me. Mostly because I don’t comprehend it, and it’s got this confusing novelty to it. Tho I am really over thinking this. Jazz may be always at the edge of my understanding. I think that might acually be it.

I saw a scientific paper a few years ago on why we enjoy music, it basically said that we enjoy when music goes the way we expect, so like a resolution, but it also said we enjoy when music jumps out and surprises you and goes in a direction you didn’t expect, so there are two options there to enjoy music, one being the easy known resolutions and expectations we’ve heard before, and the other the unexpected and surprising path, that as far as I remember, the paper said it’s good a few times but to much loses the listeners attention. I’m sorry I’ve no idea how to find that paper, but just for my own interest, I bet Jazz really is just at the edge of your understanding, it’s experienced music listeners who have heard a lot of pop music and various other popular styles, and are looking for that extra novelty that makes it intresting but an acquired taste.

I know my music taste has expanded over the years, going from pop stuff into rock and thrash metal, then more ambient stuff and now into more random music that some people might not like because it’s not viewed as music to a casual listener. But it interests me because it is weird.
There’s also lots of reports of people who have become ill and lost their interest in music, I remember Jorden Peterson mentioning that during his recovery from anxiety drugs he lost all enjoyment of music, I’ve experienced this many times in every day life as you guys probably have, some days you just arn’t enjoying even your favorite music. And I’m sure you all had a few beers of smoked some weed and thought this music is a gift from god.

It makes me a bit sad that a lot of our enjoyment is based on our brain chemistry and not just a intellectual enjoyment of the composition and concepts in the song. But That is my experience, and what I’ve read about it. So I think based on those ideas Jazz might be just at the edge of your understanding as so it’s novel to you and gets you a little bit high relative to that standerd music you’re used to. Jazz is a hard core class A drug.

Saying that tho, brain chemistry like dopamine is not acually a feel good drug as is commonly mentioned, it’s a neurotransmitter that connects neurons, allows communication and awareness, thats why you feel good when you’re flooded with various drugs, it’s allowing your brain energy and chemistry to connect, allowing consciousness to experience directly a certain experience, it’s connecting you to that information. When you’re low on those chemicals in the brain you are disconnected from experience. So the enjoyment might well be a true appreciation of the composition, mood and life that certain music brings. So it’s not that you’re not high enough with feel good chemistry, it’s that you’re not acually connected to that experience. The experience is real, it’s not just some drug making you feel that way.

And novel experiences increase stuff such as dopamine, making you more alive, more connected. So thats what Jazz is to me, new experiences. Novelty.

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#9

I couldn’t help myself:

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#10

Your definition sounds completely reasonable. I think they often like to be at the musical edge with something new/novel; their music of decades ago was good, but chasing novelty and new thrills led to the modern stuff that gives me a headache.

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#11

Do you think if you were part of that chase towards new Jazz you’d perhaps enjoy it rather than get a headache?

#12

Theres another aspect relative to this, that sometimes people play me a song and think it’s great, and I’m like, this is shit, you got terrible taste lol

But I’ve had the exact same thing happen to me showing a friend something I think is amazing and they’re like ye, ok…

Different perspectives I guess, We’re set up in our brain to connect with different things from our experiences since childhood. It’s all about connection, getting metaphysical now lol

I believe thats how phycadelics work, flood your brain with energy and connections, aka neurotransmitters, and you experience life far more directly. You even learn to enjoy things you didn’t before.

And perhaps see God, Aliens, extra dimensions, family, everything, that was always there to begin with lol Right here Right now. Ofcourse, my opinion, I could be talking shiet

To really take my direction off the rails, like Jazz perhaps, you remember tiger king? That guy was giving meth to a straight guy to make him gay, or rather open to that, and was abusing him with that control. I’ve heard that a bunch in my interest in preformance enhancers or nootropics, people who’s sexuality opens up on various substances, even alcohol can do it, I don’t think it’s acually changing their sexuality, but it’s overriding the normal connections in the brain, and if an option to experience a super vivid and connected experience presents itself in that state, you’re far more likely to go for it because it’s so novel relative to your normal experience of life, you experience that connection to reality that I think we’re all striving after, that entertainment, that super real and captivating experience. Thats what a lot of meditation is about, training your focus to experience reality in a vivid way. To connect to reality in a way that most people never experience and we only have a taste of it as a child because of how connected and driven our brain chemistry is at a young age.

I’m a bit obsessed with that concept of novelty and don’t talk about it much anywhere, putting it in text helps me understand it better. And get any thoughts from people here.

I’ve always wondered what plesure and enjoyment really are, I think it might be a connection to reality that captivates you. And stuff like Jazz and other novel experiences can provide that for people. It’s not a drug, or an outside object, it’s your ability to connect to reality. That’s what I think atm. A direct connection, almost everything we do in our life can be reasoned down to striving for connection. Just like me posting this, makes me feel good to interact with people and get a positive interaction back. Even if I’m talking nonsense lol

I have gone off a bit but hey, it’s Jazz!

#13

For me I don’t think Jazz is anything new. I think it had already been done, and is just an alteration of another form of something from the past that they did like basso continuo or figured bass, partimento, or tasto solo. :stuck_out_tongue:

because at the end of the day people are going to navigate to what they believe sounds best to them and their listeners. so you will always be trying to find home (your musical language of phrases, possibly even scale/mode dialects that you gravitate towards) in that randomness of melodic tones against the backing soundscape bass/chord progression.

almost like how even rappers have specific phrases or words or even word combinations they will use when they rap (to me this is how i might explain gypsy jazz, musical rapping lmao). so you are going to have a very difficult time trying to explain to me it wasn’t prerehearsed, sure you can noodle around a soundscape (which by the way you do have to have pre aural knowledge of how that soundscape sounds). but for something to really sound cool you have to lock on to that, and so do your listeners.

i think we can all agree though that this might be some of the freshest playing to minor swing! This guy is a dynamics monster! LMAO Everytime i hear this solo i am stunned, and i just start laughing, this dude is a boss.

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#14

it is funny that you say this because the other day i was wondering if there are any vst plugins of some kind of sequencer or even hardware sequencer (maybe euro rack module) that can allow the ability to add a random weight percentage to a pitch/s of a scale or arpeggio. so you can have it show up more often than usual during its random playback. like having complete control of the randomness of each note of whatever scale/bebop scale/arpeggio you insert. it could be like different kinds of randomness more like a vocal randomizer where it stays within an octave and a half, or just truly random both pitch and octave to a weighted randomness of course. i know this is possible with rhythms, but i dont know of anything where you can specify how more often something will occur in the note realm.

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#15

I run from any modern jazz but am delighted that their musicians seem to be enjoying their search so much.

#16

Many a Jazz purist will say bending notes isn’t Jazz. Even for those that will - it’s usually sparingly employed.

I dislike huge swaths, if not most of Modern Jazz. I’ve tried to develop an appreciation, but it’s never happened. I appreciate the underlying technical and theoretical knowledge.

Beyond that……I kinda hate it. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Some may have suggested my ‘ear’ isn’t sufficiently developed. Which is a semi-polite way of saying one is uneducated (ie: stupid).

Nothing quite like a Jazz snob.

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#17

I think there a few different ways to think about a question like this. The approach I find most interesting is to think of the question in the sense of “what combination of essential qualities make music we describe as ‘jazz’ different from other music?” One way to investigate a question like that is to look at the history of jazz and in particular, how jazz diverged from musical traditions that preceded it. I’m not an expert, but I think one major element of that was the role of repetition, and the cultural acceptance of the musicians taking creative liberties in interpreting the song.

But even within jazz, there has been change over time. Jazz of the big bang era was less improvisational than jazz that came later, and a key figure in the emergence of a more improvisational kind of jazz was Count Basie. For me, the essence of what I think of as jazz is the style and mindset popularized by Basie and some of his contemporaries.

#18

The vid you linked of Dave Liebman in your following post is good. Stylistically, it moved more from order to chaos, similarly to classical in the 20th century. Children rejecting the notions of their parents, in a way.

Anyway, this is the sort of “modern jazz” I actually like.

Which is all pretty structured for the most part, and could even be classified more as pop/funk (except for Nemesis). There’s even a good dose of humor in most of it - no cork-sniffing, just beautiful fun stuff.

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#19

sometimes i like the jazz thing, but then i also like for it to just be truly chaotic yet still maybe retain some rhythm but not always be confined. like this if i am to be surrounded by tech well then i shall embrace it! lmao!

#20

I had to take a quarter of it when I was in college. Hated it completely.

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