What is the difference between 4/4 and "3/4" picked(think clockface)

Playing Technique
#1

Here’s a question if all beats are picked(alternately), then what differentiates 3/4 and 4/4 time - that is to say 3 beats to unit measurement instead of 2 beats/four beats for units of four?

This not a beginners question it is a means to open up a discussion about something observed but so far never looked at for the profound physical(at least) facts it displays.

Take a look at the video , watch the picking examples from the beginning to about, 4 minutes in

https://youtu.be/SeqotzwM1uY?t=102 4/4 time eight notes(1and2and3and4and) easily seen even at full speed(think clockface - that is to say clockwise or counter clockwise?

Or this one

https://youtu.be/R9ZFlGDc6hI?t=349 to about to about 6:07

Three beats to the unit measure

https://youtu.be/SeqotzwM1uY?t=230 3/4 time eight note(1anda2anda3anda4anda) much harder to see at full speed

Hint: the vanishing point(the guitar bridge is twelve o’clock and you(the observer) is at six for one angle, the other angle most used is low string twelve o’clock and high string six o’clock.

In straight four time the answer is clockwise rotation(either the elbow or the shoulder or both), but for divisions of 3 repeated beats over 4/4 time the answer is both counter clockwise(first 3 beats) followed by clockwise(last 3 beats) over and over again.

So this means:

For 4/4 time(as defined)

  1. downstroke starts are clockwise phrases and Upstroke starts are counter clockwise phrases.
    a. outside string changes/repeated cycles are clockwise.
    b. Inside string changes/repeate cycles are counter clockwise.

https://youtu.be/FLiSyhmJaik?t=422 to 7:24

Four non 4/4 time units

  1. In non 4 beats to the unit measure of time (any amount) the cycle has to be repeated twice to be complete.

  2. The smallest subdivision physically expressible in non 4/4 time is 6/8 as beats. This not just for the guitar but for everybody involved in the chosen musical expression.

  3. Caveat on one string at high and ultra high speeds it is so far seen to be necessary to go in one direction only (probably clockwise only as I have observed in more than one player) as long as phrase(six beats) stays on one string only but repeats when string is changed after cycle.

https://youtu.be/R9ZFlGDc6hI?t=804 to 13:34 clockwise
https://youtu.be/R9ZFlGDc6hI?t=829 to 15:54 clockwise but at the end goes counterclockwise perhaps because balance is lost.

  1. When ascending string changes(between two strings) are involved than a change of direction is absolute in alternate picked sequences with counter clockwise motion first.

  2. When ascending to descending 4 string(one note per string) clockwise(Asc) counterclockwise(Desc). This probably means descending strings opposite of ascending string phrases(arpeggiated or otherwise) non 4/4 beat sequences.

You can call it 3/4 if you choose and write it down that way but you can’t play it relaxed that way(in alternating fashion).

This is complex stuff, try slowing the videos down(way down) and turn of the sound to see it.

Comments?

#2

That’s 12/8.

3/4 is 1and2and3and.

#3

The understanding that is important is that the beat is dived into three instead of two. But thanks for looking at it, I hope you will give it a chance, it took me along time to be coherent with it all, but I saw it years ago.

#4

I don’t understand what clockwise means in this context.

#5

Ok, I try to explain what I have scene from the players point of view.

If you look at the guitar in playing position the neck is six o’clock and the bridge is 12 o’clock. Now there are two directions in which you can push the pick into a string either on a downstroke or an upstroke(doesn’t matter).

First(D/U) is from the neck low string to the bridge high string using essential the leading edge of the pick(turtles head) and returning using the trailing edge(tail), that is a clockwise direction.

Second reverses the sequence from bridge to neck etc, etc. Steve Morse is doing this in the sequence I quoted inside string change G to D.

https://youtu.be/FLiSyhmJaik?t=422 to 7:24

Sorry it took a bit of time to write this.

#6

Basically it appears as if there are two ways to hit a string(rotate towards and on a string. That is to say what we call clockwise and counter clockwise may be very precise in terms of the possibilities thereafter depending on which we choose.

This is all new, thanks for asking me to clarify it.

#7

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

You’re referring to the angle of the pick path relative to the string length. Downstrokes that move toward the bridge and upstrokes that move toward the nut are considered clockwise (CW). Downstrokes that move toward the nut and upstrokes that move toward the bridge are considered counterclockwise (CCW).

Your insight is that simple time (2 or 4 pulses per beat) generates clockwise picking motions, and compound time (3 pulses per beat) generates alternating CW and CCW motion in groups of 3.

I’ll try it out when I get my hands on my guitar tonight, but first I have some questions:

Did I explain it right? Did I miss anything? Did I totally miss the point?

You specified leading edge picking here. Is that required?

Is this pattern a tendency or a requirement? In other words, does this make things easier, or make things possible? (Or something else?)

Isn’t it also possible for the pick to move perpendicular to the string (i.e. neither CW nor CCW)?

In the case of compound time (CW-CW-CW-CCW-CCW-CCW), it would seem that maybe two of the strokes should be neutral (CW-CW-N-CCW-CCW-N), otherwise your hand ends up continuing to travel in whichever direction you started until it hits the bridge or the nut. Alternatively, maybe you could reset your initial position with your elbow or shoulder every six strokes.

Do string changes have any impact on this pattern?

Is this pattern tied to a particular mechanic or is it general?

Thanks for sharing!

1 Like
#8

Yes absolutely right, and of course vesa versa U/D in a CW and CCW direction(starting with an upstroke and going in both direction in other words).

Could be CCW as well as long as the cycle continues but it does appear that players including myself prefer CW for what you have called “simple time” -thanks for that, I’m going to use that from now on :smile: Steve Morse appeared to use CCW for inside string change in the video I quoted.

No, No and No. You go it.

You specified leading edge picking here. Is that required?

No it just seems that that is what is occurring whether the pick is edged or not, but this is a fine point, I wouldn’t dwell on it.

Is this pattern a tendency or a requirement? In other words, does this make things easier, or make things possible? (Or something else?)

I believe that the pattern of CCW to CW is necessary in compound time because compound time is an infinity(it really makes a figure eight). But this is still on the drawing board, so don’t quote me on that yet. Simple time has a beginning and an end, that’s why it is simple.*
*Addendum
I now believe it is tendancy/necessary for compound time except at ultra high speeds.

Isn’t it also possible for the pick to move perpendicular to the string (i.e. neither CW nor CCW)?

But that’s just it isn’t it? The implication is that the flat plane myth of western duality is over(and has been for a long time). All movement(in space/time) requires cyclic fundementals. An example is the so called “Buzz saw” of the arm/shoulder. This is an incomplete analogy(metaphor), because the actual movement(which can look like a straight line, is actually tapered, whether moving from low to high as a lowering of the upper arm/elbow or a raising of the upper arm elbow when tracking across the strings with say going up the usual pentatonic scale(2N/string option), and down again. This is like flapping wings perhaps. The motion is always circular but in cases where the circle is non-apparent we call that(a very, very tight rotation), a line(but it’s not).

In the case of compound time (CW-CW-CW-CCW-CCW-CCW), it would seem that maybe two of the strokes should be neutral (CW-CW-N-CCW-CCW-N), otherwise your hand ends up continuing to travel in whichever direction you started until it hits the bridge or the nut. Alternatively, maybe you could reset your initial position with your elbow or shoulder every six strokes.

This is what it looks like to me doing it (remember its new to me as a discrete and clear observation). The (N) beat appears to flip the direction as a natural fact (there is something in physics about this(perhaps to do with newtons 3rd law " every action has an opposite and equal reaction"), otherwise it’s just simple time disguised as compound time and gets tiring and uninspiring at low or medium speeds. At ultra high speed I don’t know if its possible, it may be that it flattens so much that it is in fact non-discernible between pick and string and therefore becomes uni-directional.

Do string changes have any impact on this pattern?

If the cycle is complete CW/CCW to CCW/CW, then no effect, the cycle is repeated. I believe this pattern is most visible in string change situations and in fact make it possible to repeat the patterns into infinity with out strain say on three string triplet rolls.*

  • As an aside the three string fourth interval in minor thirds phrase in Larry Carlton’s “You Gotta Get It While You Can” off of “Sleepwalk” at the break is the prime candidate for this as an accomplishment, but I wonder if Carlton picks ddu up a minor third ddu up a minor third etc, instead of roll and perhaps with the CCW/CW directional change after every lick?
    I’ll have to try that one soon.

Is this pattern tied to a particular mechanic or is it general?

This pattern of CCW/CW movement- the movement but could also be CW/CCW- is inherent in all instrumental play. Any lick(probably) can be played with two rotations - that is to say with both the right hand(picking) and the left hand(fretting) no bias intended- this is great for development in the left hand you can push instead of pull or go in one direction and then the other thus putting equal stress on the muscles/tendons and such.

Don’t forget to look at the videos I quoted, as the evidence for this is clearly there.

Thanks for sharing!

You are most welcome :smile:

1 Like
#9

I thought that clockwise and counterclockwise were the names you gave to the angle of the pickstroke, whether nut-to-bridge (clockwise) or bridge-to-nut (counterclockwise) on a downstroke, etc. Are you saying the pick is actually moving in a circular path and that clockwise and counterclockwise are meant literally?

How exactly are you measuring this in the videos and in your own playing?

#10

I have to say that I’m totally lost with the ideas above, its hard to understand the point/purpose of your posts above (sorry, I’m a bit dense at times). I think its difficult to understand with the multiple videos etc. @Surfpunk, have you thought about making your own video to explain it? It would be good to see

#11

I thought that clockwise and counterclockwise were the names you gave to the angle of the pickstroke, whether nut-to-bridge (clockwise) or bridge-to-nut (counterclockwise) on a downstroke, etc.

Yes, I am saying that.

Are you saying the pick is actually moving in a circular path and that clockwise and counterclockwise are meant literally?

Yes I am saying that as well.

In fact I can see and experience that downstokes done CCW as a cycle become CW when the plane of the string is broken forcing the overall direction of the movement D/U cycles to be CW( in amazement). And the opposite is true as well.

How exactly are you measuring this in the videos and in your own playing?

A long time ago I traced the picking path as spirals going through the strings(I have a picture of it), but I really didn’t know at the time what to make of it.

If you finger pick say the top four strings as an arpeggio open or say Maj7(closed voicing) form, ascending and then descending(compound time 6/8), like that silly song from the 70’s-was it Barry White?), you will see how this works-what is your tendency?

My natural tendency is to go CW Asc to descending that is from slight pronattion to supination before descending, it is slight but can be exaggerated to show this more clearly.

One can how ever go the other way, that is to say from supination asc to pronation on the descend CCW. It is awkward, but makes the point. It may not be a good idea for long periods of time but shows the possibility. Doing it in simple time 4/4 or 3/4 may be easier to see and feel, that is to say CW or CCW meaning either asc or desc.

That’s it for now.

#12

See my reply, to Induction.

More tomorrow.

Tomorrow has arrived. Very simple, to adjacent strings(any two) D/U orientation, in 4/4 time. Now there are 2 opposing ways to do this equaling a circular movement that can of course repeat.

1st way: Thumb is straight and push through first string toward bridge(lower-thumb middle joint becomes slightly concave) over second(higher) string-thumb joint starts to convex- and returns back through second string,thumb joint fully convex before passing through(the famous thumb bump) releases to start again in straight orientation and repeats in 4/4 time. This clockwise obviously.

2nd way: Thumb joint fully convex before passing through first lower string in direction of the nut, over second(higher)string-thumb joint becomes less convex, thumb joint(middle) becomes fully concave before passing through second(higher)string and bends to become convex before starting again in 4/4 time, obviously counter clockwise.

Now it can be argued that this only happens when the pick(downward pick slanted and angled with tip towards nut-usual way-leading edge style) is not straight towards the string to go “straight” through, but there is no such thing, its very subtle in that orientation but none the less you go either CW(start with thump straight), or CCW(start with the thumb bump- convex), when alternate picking.

6/8, that is compound time is trickier because you either go CW in 1 and half rotations say in the pepsi lick DUD and then on the second string UDU go to CCW in 1 and half rotations and back again. When Vinnie Moore slows it down he does this way, but in the ultra fast mode stays in one direction, even when changing strings but it looks to me like he is going CCW, whereas troy goes clockwise in Antigravity to demonstrate this phrase.

Video is out of the question, I’m just not equipped for that. But in the future maybe.

The major point is that compound time has a different physical quality than simple time except at ultra high speed where the threeness of the finger and or string choices gives the sense of it’s presence.

Try watching this, https://youtu.be/SeqotzwM1uY?t=102

and hit the back space key to go right back to where it starts on any of the pick oreintations(they are very short). And watch the hand rotate around the bridge left to right clockwise, bridge is 12:00 desc from E string to A string 6:00 where neck begins/ends, then on ascending strings goes from 6:00 back to 12:00 in 4/4 time.

12:00 1and2and 6:00 3and4and 12:00 repeat 3x through fully CW.

If you can’t see it after awhile you will.

I feel it makes a big difference in how I approach success and failure in terms of efficiency. I wish I could post something but not possible.

Compound time 6/8 (must be six because of alternate picking)

two versions very close to one another (low) and (high), I Can see the change in direction at full speed but very subtle it is there from clockwise on the first downstroke(of the first 3 beats-1 1/2 rotations), counter clockwise the first upstroke(of the second 3 beats1 1/2 rotations), before it is repeated 3x fully through.

It is possible to download these videos and use software to slow it down, I did that and am sure of myself here no doubt of what I at least can see.

KMplayer(version 3.0.0.14 has a time stretch feature(remember 16 speed record players, I do).

Good luck in seeing this, perhaps very few can or need to.

Don’t worry I won’t do this again soon.