What to do if nothing works (after a decade of trying)?

Playing Technique
#1

Hi!

So I have over the last 10 years or so tried to build a good and reliable picking technique. I have always naturally gravitated toward dsx lines but I have never got It to be efficient. I can be very fast on a single string but no matter how much I try I can’t for the life of me not get stuck on the upstroke. I have tried every type of pick grip, went through all tutorials but I never get anywhere. Can someone who has been in my situation give me some tips on how to move on? Can it be that I have too many bad habits at this point that it’s impossible to improve?

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#2

Definitely consider a teacher, they might be able to help you get restarted! It is never too late to get better.

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#3

Ah, a fellow Drew!

You can always do what I did and just lean heavily on your legato technique… but I’ll also add that, SOMETHING will work - my practicing has been haphazard and not especially targeted, but I think simply figuring out how my picking hand worked and what sort of things I should be able to play eventually over time got me to the point where my picking technique may still be short of remarkable… but it’s no longer glaringly obviously bad, and I’ve started incorporating the occasional fast picked run into my own music now, as my vocabulary starts to evolve.

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#4

@drewguitar do you have any videos you can share?

Have you tried a more positive pick point?

#5

hey man.
just remember, each and every one of us has their own weaknesses and strengths.
do you associate john mclaughlin with legato playing?
do you associate allan holdsworth with super fast alternate picking?

at least I, don’t.
so just work with what you have and I promise you,
you will achieve something big.

just dont forget; keep on practicing.

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#6

This is just my opinion, but if you are talking about changing string on an upstroke ala the Paul Gilbert lick, this is an INCREDIBLY hard thing to master. I too have been at this for years trying to get right. I have improved as a result of a lot of analysis and practice - but I have found it hands down to be one of the hardest things to master I have attempted.

Some tips on how I have managed to find some improvement:

  1. focusing on lick fragments that just involve the string move
  2. recording takes and slowing them down to check progress and accuracy
  3. practicing slow and fast - noticing the change to elbow technique for me as speed increases and playing around with that
  4. hyper attention to hand synchronisation
  5. noticing how my technique naturally changes on the move on lower strings and higher strings - pick angles, escapes etc

I have to confess I am still not happy with my technique around this either - still a work in progress - but I feel it has improved. But wow has it taken a lot of work. But I figure if this was easy you would see players everywhere doing it!

Keep going! There can be fun in the challenge! :slight_smile:

Hope this helps!

#7

@drewguitar looks like you have a MIM membership, so why not try the technique critique platform?

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#8

I’m not sure what you are saying the problem is. If you are doing DSX then you should be getting stuck on the upstrokes since the escape motion is on on the downstroke.

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#9

Great point!

As Jabarabu is pointing out, if you are a DSX player, downstroke string changes are your thing. You shouldn’t really have to worry about upstroke string changes since they don’t work with a straight DSX joint motion. The winning move is not to play. Just ask John McLaughlin!

However: if what you are asking about are things like the Paul Gilbert lick, then what you are really asking about is mixing both escapes. There are precisely two ways to do this: double escape motion, or two-way pickslanting. Both methods are known, and we have solid ways of teaching both.

So I highly recommend @tommo’s suggestion of doing a TC. We’ll check out your core motion first to make sure it’s what you think it is, and make any improvements there that we can think of. Then we’ll make sure that single escape lines are working perfectly when needed, as well as hand sync even on a single string. Then if you want to do mixed escape stuff, we’ll make sure your form is compatible with either DBX or 2wps and get one or both working on some basic phrases. That’s the roadmap!

Honestly, this is a four-note lick and should not be a thing that people spend years trying to learn. I don’t mean to trivialize the difficulty of learning picking technique. We’ve seen every kind of problem at this point and we know how sticky mechanical issues can be. On top of this, none of this stuff was obvious when I started.

I just mean that I hate to see people beat their heads against the wall when we have better information now. Again, the two approaches for doing this are known, and we have good methods for teaching them – for many different underlying joint motions / picking styles. So if we can help, we’re happy to do it.

Finally, as a general comment: I think the Paul Gilbert lick is a musical empty calorie that too many people have spent too many years working on. The typical end result of learning it is… that you can do the Paul Gilbert lick. It tends to make everyone sound exactly the same. I’m not knocking the usefulness of the underlying mechanical skill. But the lick itself, played in the classic way, has a musically homogenizing effect. Aside from the simple fact that people like doing things they can’t currently do (and I get it), it hardly seems worth all the effort that has been spent on it over the years.

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#10

You can focus on getting a vocabulary that eliminates the problem. “Gypsy pickers” like Django, Joe Pass, Eric Johnson and Yngwie Malmsteen never start a new string with an upstroke, always a downstroke (with some very few exceptions).

#11

Is it the picking that’s a hassle or the arrangement of the notes mismatched to the escape style? For example, the PG lick in it’s original arrangement isn’t playable for me (DSX) - not without swiping or something.

-------------------12-------------------
—12–13–15-------15–13--------

Works out great for me if I play it like so I do it like this;

u     D   u    D     u    D

—12–13–15–17–15–13--------

Problem solved for a single escape (DSX) player like me - and like Troy says, musically it’s just BCDEDC so not the most musical statement ever, however it does give off that feeling of unbridled fury if you can play it at PG speeds, which is fun! So I have it in the toolbox if I want it. Mess with the note arrangement. That really hrlped me with stuff I wanted to play but couldn’t. Good luck!

#12

Yeah, Sorry for not being clear. I guess what i mean is that i always get garage spikes on the upstroke, especially on descending string changes

One example of a thing I have been trying to get forever that I can’t get smooth is playing repeated 2nps lines. It’s never smooth on the upstroke no matter what pick grip I try

#13

Which one exactly? Just curious if it’s a line that draws from a 2nps scale but actually ends up being odd NPS or if it is indeed even nps string changes? :grinning:

#14

You play upstroke-downstroke on one string then descend to the string above and play upstroke-downstroke

#15

Assuming you’ve been trying to use the “zero degree pickslant”, experiment with various amounts of upward pickslanting. If you truly are DSX, you will find some sweet spot with upward pickslanting where the garage spikes will stop being an issue.