What's a good chord for Phrygian?

haha good thing i said this so i can find out how wrong i am to move on :stuck_out_tongue:

my brain was like ok well phrygian is major mirrored and overtone series doesnt descend it ascends and my brain went into this mode lol. and then the thought was well we cant flip the script on the overtone series so thats where this came from haha

I personally really like the following voicing on on guitar (Assuming standard tuning and B Phrygian)

7
7
9
10
9
7

I guess that’s a Bm Add b9 (sus 4) ?

It’s a Bsus4 with a b2 or b9. There’s no third in the chord. It’s common to use that set of notes to voice a “B7sus4b9” even though there’s no 7. We see these chords often in jazz tunes of the mid 1960s and forward.

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Thanks Jake! I was thinking hmmm I’m sure this is just a 7sus4 with a flattened 9 ad there ya go :wink:

The characteristic chord of plain old Phrygian is eminb9. The third is often omitted from this chord though, particularly on guitar unless you can space everything far enough apart because it has two nearby dissonances and clashes with both the root and the minor third. it is really hard to have a closed voicing with this chord.

The interesting thing about this chord too is that it cannot really be considered a sus2 with the omitted 3rd. Most sus 2 chords tend to have a strong upwards resolution to the 3rd. This one has a strong pull down, and its destination target is already present in the chord - the root in this case.

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I think this may be more contextual too though. Depends on application. Enharmonically, It could also be a an inverted Cmaj7#11 just omitting the 5th, or an inverted CdimMaj7 chord (also popular in jazz) So it really depends on the piece, function and resolution.

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Definitely not Cdimma7, that would require presence of an Eb note and no E.

If the voicing in question didn’t have the low B note, I’d agree that it could be a Cma7b5 , but the presence of the low B makes Bsus(b9) a better name if we’re just naming the chord out of context. I mean, it could also be an Am6/B or D13/B depending on context, or Esus2(b6)/B , but without a special context given, some type of Bsus would be the correct name. And if there wasn’t already that B in the low register, it could function as a bunch of different things depending on what a bass player is doing.

Cma7b5/B vs Bsus(b9), I think of the former as just a clunkier name for the latter. Kind of like how we could call a Bma9 as D#m7/B , but 99% of the time we wouldn’t do that. (The other 1% would be if there was a pedal point or something going on)

I guess not everybody uses the sus(b9) kind of symbols, but they should, because it’s a nice/common sound and that’s the most concise way to label it.

The slash labeling stuff I think applies better when there’s some sort of pedal point movement happening Eg:
Ema7/B Ebma7/B Dma7/B Cma7b5/B

Your are right about dimM7 it does need a minor 3rd, but the argument is really a contextual one. Outside of some jazz harmony we rarely look at guitar chords as single entities and look at them in context of function in the bigger scope and everything else that is being played around them. Having the b, or 7th in the lowest register of the chord isn’t uncommon. even in Jazz harmony some of those clunkier names exist and can be appropriate.

I definitely agree context matters, but in 99% of the contexts that you’d have that chord, it would (should) be named as a type of Bsus. There absolutely can be circumstances where it can be named as something else, but that’s just a truth about chord naming in general; same thing could be said about any chord. I don’t think it means we can’t have an “assumed default” name to a group of notes, I think it’s useful.

If someone said “what chord are these notes: A E G C?” Then the answer is Am7. Yes it’s also C6 and a rootless Fma9 etc etc but it’s Am7 “until proven guilty”

Maybe we can agree that it’s good to be aware of as many possible uses/contexts as reasonably possible, but that having an “innocent until proven guilty” or “assumed default” name is not only useful but important. I’m thinking like, song starts and the bass note is the bass note, the other pitches are in the order stated, and we have to “name that sound.”

Because otherwise we’d be talking about the concept of chord naming in general, and not the topic of what chord might capture the “Phrygian sound”

Sure. Innocent until guilty is probably what most people would do when no other contextual elements are present. Any inversion of ACEG would be Amin7 until you could gauge how it was functioning in whatever context it was used. Is Bsus4b9 a good chord to fully capture the Phrygian sound? Ehhh, tastes maybe. I personally think a simpler chord does everything we need it to in that case, and just adding more doesn’t really do us many favors.

Are you saying minor triad plus b9 would be that chord? er Bm(add♭2) ?

If so, I think that’s why Troy started the discussion; it doesn’t quite work as a standalone chord. I agree it’s a bit subjective; the minor triad with a b9 just sounds like a big “honk” to me. I mean, if an individual likes it, by all means they should play it, and the phrygian mode is a logical choice over that set of notes. To me that combination (say for Em b2) sounds too much like a “wrong” G13 or something. But yeah, it is subjective, unless there’s some ultra nerdy stuff about the harmonic series that I’m not hip to yet. I think the video I posted earlier in the thread is all decent representations of standalone chords that are distinctly phrygian.

It would be solely because it is the root chord of the mode with the added characteristic note or tension. But I mentioned this a few posts above (I think twice, once a year ago) in practice often the 3rd would be omitted for clarity especially on a guitar or any instrument that relies on relatively closed chord voicings versus say an instrument like piano where this is not as much of an issue because you have more freedom to spread things out a lot, so you really aren’t as subjected to the “honk”.

The third isn’t really needed as much here anyway and would or could be implied elsewhere.

I know we’ve beat this dead horse to the ground, but here’s Jens Larsen with a nice one minute clip on the subject:

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Ha, awesome! Yep that’s perfect. If it doesn’t have that tensiony Gypsy sound you’re not really getting the Phrygian vibe.