Where in MIM do we have examples of these Pent sequences?

[Acecrusher]

I have a feeling Yngwie sounds a bit faster than he actually is…just due to his attack and tone and cleanliness back then etc. I take Willjays list with a huge grain of salt but he has numerous people being as fast as Yngwie and of course some faster. Then again he has Joe Stump and Greg Howe being somewhat slower than Yngwie. Dunno.

viv on that 1st album was just sick. Just the overall aggressiveness and look what year it was. Stunning for that time period and still quite impressive.

I completely agree with you about Vivan and I think he was only 21 years old at that time since he was born n 1962 and this was 1983! His speed, aggression, sense of melody, and vibrato were all so good. It’s sad that he went to Def Leppard. To me anyway. In 1983 that was state of the art playing and as you said still quite impressive.

Regarding Joe Stump being ranked relatively low on Willjay’s list, I’d guess that was because Stump’s fastest playing is all economy picked and those economy picked licks didn’t qualify since the list was for strict alternate picking. I think Stump is good, but damn, I’ve never seen anyone try so hard to be just like Yngwie, right down to using not just the same guitar but even the same strings, all the rings and other jewelry, and now he’s finally achieved his dream - he’s the guitarist for Alcatrazz.

Greg Howe I think probably is slower than Yngwie but Howe is an awesome player. His strongest point is his phrasing which was extremely unique for a Shrapnel signed player. Dallas Perkins, the teacher who taught me for a few months in 1988 when I was living in Tampa and taught me how to sweep pick said Greg Howe was one of his favorites and maybe the best of all the Shrapnel guys because of his phrasing. Howe has as different a style from Yngwie as he could possibly have and still be considered a shred player. Another thing I like about Greg Howe is he endorsed the first serious guitar I ever owned and the guitar I have played more years than any other - The Fender Heavy Metal Strat.

The Fender HM Strat is a truly awesome guitar with its 24 fret neck with a 17 inch radius, the Kahler locking tremolo, the Dimarzio pickups - it’s a Strat in name only! it’s a beautifully made guitar, I love the feel of the neck, and mine has a very nice paint job - it’s a marbled wine colored guitar. It’s gorgeous. I couldn’t find a picture of one so picture one like this but wine colored and the marbling is black. Everything else including the maple fretboard is the same.

[Drew]

yeah I just want to see some pros version of this. I usually do it with an economy pick thrown in so its always inside picking going to the higher string. But I was also wanting to see what kind of speed the pros are doing this pattern at

So, I’m no pro, and it’s sloppy as hell, but if I floor it I can get up to Campell’s speed in that Dio tune and while getting up to speed is a little shakey I can at least hold it at that speed for a while. I’ll try to push the speed on this pattern for a little bit and see what happens, but for now it looks like I’m crosspicking.

[Acecrusher]

Drew, no shame in not being able to play that up to speed and clean. Vivian Cambell was a monster player!

[tommo]

Interestingly, these triplet pentatonic licks were something I could play fast within my first year of studying guitar (only with inside picking though). I have no idea what mechanics I was using and can’t remember how clean it was, but it felt easy. Then I changed teacher and he told me my picking was wrong etc etc and it all went down the drain… grr!

I tried to wing it today after 20y and it feels a bit sticky/mistakey, but seems doable with some more practice:

I think I am doing a sort of poor man’s Andy Wood in terms of motion, with some kind of flick of the wrist/forearm to dodge the unwanted strings, but perhaps @Troy & co will see something different.

EDIT: when I do this with outside picking, it’s a swipefest!

[Troy]

I think I am doing a sort of poor man’s Andy Wood in terms of motion, with some kind of flick of the wrist/forearm to dodge the unwanted strings, but perhaps @Troy & co will see something different.

This is awesome. It looks either pronated, like Molly, or it could be a flat orientation which only gives you downstroke escape and not upstroke escape. Di Meola appears to do this and this may be why you hear swiping in Al’s technique and potentially also why you experience it on the “outside” version of this.

Andy appears to be more supinated, just eyeballing:

Di Meola Anchor Tk1

But you can see that this doesn’t stop him from making occasional forearm adjustments. So it’s complicated.

Great works here - looks / sounds great.

[Drew]

No excuse - I’ve been playing longer than he was at the time!

I tried to wing it today after 20y and it feels a bit sticky/mistakey, but seems doable with some more practice:

That looks a lot like my mechanic playing this (aside from the fact your results are cleaner, lol), right down to that weird flick of the wrist. For me, I’m pretty sure that’s a two way slant thing, where I lean naturally towards a upwards slant with escaped downstrokes, and when I need to escape on an upstroke I get that rotational flick of the wrist thing going. I seem to be sort of splitting the difference between crosspicking and TWPS on patterns like this - call it crosspicking with the occasional assist, I guess.

Great playing!

[JonJon]

haha. im such a dunsky sometimes. I went to play the “Pentatonic” sequence…you know the one where I mentioned throwing in an economy pick lol.

Then i realized I wasnt looking for a pent sequence after all lol. I realized it when i tried the Pent sequence and i was like “uhmm, I thought I was faster at this??”

I meant to reference this type of sequence…where id normally throw in an economy pick going to the G string

G-----------------------------------------------------2----2–4--2–4--5 etc
D-----------------------2----2–3--2–3--5–3--5----5------------------
A–3--2–3--5–3--5----5------------------------------------------------

[Drew]

I had a few moments last night so I started blowing through that pattern against a C minor backing track, and then filmed a few quick video clips, one of which is here:

Pentatonic pattern for CtC

Tommo’s is definitely cleaner - not the least of which because he’s playing unplugged (!!!) and while I’m not using a ton of gain (Mark V, Mark IV mode, gain at noon) I’m still getting a little bit of an assist.

We do seem to be using a similar picking motion, though - I’m gonna go with crosspicking but with some two-way assist coming off upstrokes before string changes, but if someone else is seeing something different definitely weigh in!

@JonJon

I meant to reference this type of sequence…where id normally throw in an economy pick going to the G string

G-----------------------------------------------------2----2–4–2–4–5 etc
D-----------------------2----2–3–2–3–5–3–5----5------------------
A–3–2–3–5–3–5----5------------------------------------------------

It’s a heck of a lot easier diatonic, huh? If I get a chance I’ll shoot some of this, but it’s the same mechanical approach just with fewer string changes. Ironically, the best way to practice this is probably to practice the pentatonic pattern, since the string changes come at you a lot faster!

[JonJon]

omg another Paul Gilbert marfan pinky lol

yeah, maybe it was a Freudian slip that I accidentally posted the Pent pattern. In trying it I see how bad I suck at it. I dont feel bad though because probably 3-4 hrs practice would speed it up quite a bit. As it is, the right AND left hand would be a bit wonky on it since I generally only do it in bits or maybe with some hammer/pulls

The diatonic stuff though I have somewhat together since thats 99% of what I play lol

[Drew]

omg another Paul Gilbert marfan pinky lol

I have NO idea what you’re talking about, but I’m intrigued, lol

And yeah - I first got started on lead guitar playing mostly blues and blues rock, so I still tend to do a lot of pentatonic runs. I like what Rusty Cooley does with them too in more of a shred environment, they can sound very “open” and weirdly fast due to the wide intervals, even though when you sequence them like this you lose a lot of that effect.

It’s worth spending some time drilling them even if it’s not a shape you’re going to find yourself playing much - if you can do this with a pentatonic, a diatonic feels easy!

[JonJon]

Marfan syndrome

yeah im sort using some of Claus Levins practice ideas ATM where I am trying to really master single string playing and then expand out from there. Its actually working quite nicely!

So the hardcore Pent sequence might be a ways away since its about as hard as it gets. Of course I am also doing 3nps stuff so plenty of string crossing work too but part of his (my, common sense) philosophy is to focus on one or two main things at once as opposed to spreading too thin

[Drew]

Oh, lol, I don’t think my fingers are THAT long, it’s probably just a weird angle, haha.

Honestly, that’s kind of what I’ve been doing - for stuff like the Gilbert 6s pattern, simply drilling things like 3-5-7-3-5-7 or 7-5-3-7-5-3 and then moving it up or down in scale along a single string really helped me wiith my coordination. And I’ve always been a believer in breaking a problem down to its component parts and finding a way to practice just what you’re getting hung up on - if a diatonic pattern is tough at the string changes, then doing it pentatonic certainly forces you to change more often.

[tommo]

Tommo’s is definitely cleaner - not the least of which because he’s playing unplugged (!!!) and while I’m not using a ton of gain (Mark V, Mark IV mode, gain at noon) I’m still getting a little bit of an assist.

It sounds very clean and badass to me bro! Also, contrary to popular belief I don’t think that the gain helps, if anything you got more muting to do to keep things under control!

I would love to see this filmed with a more CTC-angle if you get the chance.

As an aside I totally dig your tone. I wonder if I’ll be able to get something similar with my Overloud amp sim.

@Troy I think you are correct that my form is more Molly- or AL- esque (haha I wish!).

However, I don’t think that this is the reason for my frequent swiping in the outside changes, because my inside-picked clip shows that I (and others using the same posture) should be able to do upstroke escapes from that position. I know that is probably not what you were saying but just wanted to clarify!

Could it simply be that my hand got a bit “lazy” in navigating the outside changes at high speed - like it seems to happen to many players out there? (As shown in one of your Antigravity chapters, for example). Because it’s quite easy to swipe the outside changes without noticing, I think one may need to make a more conscious effort to memorise the proper excaped trajectories.

[Drew]

It sounds very clean and badass to me bro! Also, contrary to popular belief I don’t think that the gain helps, if anything you got more muting to do to keep things under control!

I would love to see this filmed with a more CTC-angle if you get the chance.

As an aside I totally dig your tone. I wonder if I’ll be able to get something similar with my Overloud amp sim.

You’re too kind, man. But thanks! Gain can be a blessing and a curse - I wouldn’t be shocked to see in slo-mo I’m adding in the occasional legato note, which some compression and saturation definitely helps smooth out. At the same time, you’re right, muting becomes a much bigger issue. I guess at the end of the day one of the big messages of the CtC program for me is that it doesn’t make sense to get uber-dogmatic, and if there’s an occasional unpicked note in there, as long as the results SOUND good, then it’s fine.

As far as tone… this is an alder Strat with a fairly punchy “modern” sounding singlecoil set in them, Suhr ML Standards (I think Suhr’s singlecoils are amazing, and they’re not THAT much more expensive than Fender, $80 each or $240 for a set. I’ve also played the V60s, which I like, and thhe V60LPs, which I like even more). In Overloud… Looking at the amp lists I’d say your best bet are either the Caliper Studio Lead (Mesa Caliber 50), or the Markus II Lead (Mark IIC+). Gain to taste but try around noon, Presence VERY low (I’ve got mine under 9 o’clock), bass pretty low too (I forget, but try maybe 9-10 o’clock - keeping the low end clear in a Recto- or Mark-style preamp helps a lot with clarity, and even that low these things aren’t lacking in low end). I had the Bright engaged and the treble maybe at 1:30 or so and the mids probably around the same, but a fairly neutral 11-1 spot is probably a good starting point. Idunno - lots of people say Marks or Rectos are tough to dial in, but I’ve been playing various Mesas for so long now that it’s pretty second nature to me, and settings like these (maybe a little more gain, I usually start around 1-1:30) are a pretty standard starting point for me for lead sounds when I plug into one.

I’ll see if I can shoot some better CtC approved footage over the weekend so we can really see what exactly my pick is doing!

[Troy]

, right down to that weird flick of the wrist.

Jut to be clear, I assume you know this, but for the less initiated who may be reading, the “weird flick of the wrist” is not only common but also the subject of the Antigravity seminar and the “2wps” section of the Pickslanting Primer. What you’re doing in your clip not only looks and sounds awesome - it’s also the textbook approach for doing this.

Nice work here!

[Drew]

@Troy

Jut to be clear, I assume you know this, but for the less initiated who may be reading, the “weird flick of the wrist” is not only common but also the subject of the Antigravity seminar and the “2wps” section of the Pickslanting Primer. What you’re doing in your clip not only looks and sounds awesome - it’s also the textbook approach for doing this.

Nice work here!

First, thank you - you’re ALSO too kind, Troy. There’s some monster players around here, you and Tommo amongst them, and I’m just trying to narrow that gap a little bit.

The only reason I know that is because when several months ago I posted a video of, actually, I think it was probably this exact pentatonic pattern, and I honed in on “…and there’s this weird winding up motion I’m doing…” you pointed out it was textbook TWPS, which considering at the time I’d just been looking at the DWPS stuff not to confuse myself until I felt comfortable there, was 100% news to me, lol. Now I’m at least aware of what’s going on, and while I don’t know if this is something I even want conscious control over, I’m at least focusing on tryng to keep my wrist loose and not fighting this motion, and it seems to be helping a lot.

Question, though - I’ll shoot some slow-mo close up footage over the weekend but in the past I’ve looked at this motion and this sort of run and there was definitely an arc’d/crosspicking thing going on in the pickstroke. Does it make any sense to be doing this rotational thing on top of that too? It seems potentially like it’s duplicating efforts, but at the same time if I’m mostly picking with wrist deviation from a fairly flat wrist position then adding in a bit of rotation on certain pickstrokes seems like it’s at least working an unrelated muscle group so I suspect it probably isn’t hurting anything…

EDIT - actually, here’s a link to the post I was thinking of, complete with slow-mo footage, and it’s actually great to go back and revisit this because the video above is a LOT cleaner and maybe a hair faster than what I was doing three months ago. A heartfelt thank you to the whole site, really, for producing this awesome analysis and then all the really great analysis and feedback I’ve gotten on these boards, because you all really ARE making me a better guitarist. \m/

Still trying to figure out what's going on with my picking mechanic - odd swooping motion (EDIT - crosspicking progress thread)

Ok, since I haven’t shared anything in a while and since I was talking about this a couple days ago, here’s another clip with something kind of odd in my playing that I’m trying to figure out if it’s a problem or not. I at present have a mechanic that I guess I’d characterize as a not-terribly-efficient crosspicking approach - there’s a bit of an arc to by pickstroke, but it’s not huge. In the slow-mo you can see in certain points some swiping and rest strokes going on, which means at a minimum…

[Acecrusher]

That’s a nice take… Fairly good speed and quite clean. You said it’s not as clean as Tommo’s take but it’s tough to tell since you’re plugged in and he’s not. I don’t think there’s a big difference in how clean the two of you play it and I’m not even sure that one is necessarily cleaner than the other.

Do you know what metronome setting that is? I ask because earlier in the thread we were discussing Vivian Campbell’s use of this lick in Don’t Talk To Strangers and I think you said you can match the speed but not the accuracy. What specifically happens if you try to play this lick at the tempo of Don’t Talk To Strangers? I’m guessing you’re probably going to say you swipe more, but swiping isn’t necessarily bad - many of the greats use swiping. What matters is how audible the swipes are.

Anyway, that’s just my guess as to what happens if you play that lick at that tempo. Am I right or does something else happen, or maybe both?

[Drew]

I actually don’t know - here’s the backing I was jamming along with, if someone wants to count it out:

Fun backing - very different than my usual stuff, and it forces you to stay really on the beat, which for a while there I tended to be very loose and behind the beat.

I don’t know for sure, but my suspicion is that my technique doesn’t change. At least, from a macro standpoint, I still find myself doing that winding up TWPS movement, which makes me suspect the answer is no.

[Troy]

Does it make any sense to be doing this rotational thing on top of that too ? It seems potentially like it’s duplicating efforts, but at the same time if I’m mostly picking with wrist deviation

I don’t question things that work, only things that don’t. Maybe you’re using a pickstroke that has some double-escape-style curvature, maybe you’re not. If you can’t tell then it’s not hurting anything. But if you get a chance to film this down the strings in 120fps with good light definitely do so I’m sure that would cool to look at.

The main thing is that becoming more aware of motions you already know how to do means you can control them better and apply them to stuff you maybe haven’t tried. More knowledge never hurts. You can always choose to not pay attention - but having the option to pay attention when necessary is a super power that lots of people would like to have.

[Drew]

Anecdotally, it seems that it’s helping me, being aware of what my picking hand is doing. And I’m definitely going to try to get some decent video over the weekend.