Where on CTC is DBX motion actually taught?

Playing Technique
#1

So I’m just going to start with saying I’m incredibly frustrated by the convoluted teaching method at CTC so please bear with me. I’m wondering if someone can help me. I know that string changes are the primary issue with my playing. I’ve been playing for 20 years. I always come here to try to fix it and I’ve never found out where this stuff is actually taught on this website (and no, it’s not the Pickslanting Primer (for me). I’ve watched that thing about 15 times and nowhere is it broken down how to execute these motions.)

I want to learn DBX motion because I am a natural DSX player, and according to Troy DBX is an extension of DSX. I still can’t find a single video where the DBX motion is actually explained - as in, how the hell do you actually do it? I know it’s a semi-circle, I know what it looks like, I know which players use it and when you use it, but I need to be told what to do to achieve the semi-circle. If I start with my normal DSX pick stroke and clear the string, and then want to come back up a string, what do I do with my wrist for it to be DBX and not string-hopping? I just keep hitting the string above me when crossing over unless I do this extreme angle (basically switching to USX for a bit) and I feel this makes me want to string hop. It doesn’t feel like a back and forth sort of motion when I’m playing at 160+ bpm with pure DSX.

For example: let’s take the standard 3 note, 1 note Paul Gilbert lick I’m incredibly slow if I’m not thinking about it, and can hit around 110 bpm 16ths clean if I try to do what I THINK is DBX motion.

It’s unbelievable that there’s hundreds of hours of material on here, and nowhere is it concisely broken down how exactly to execute any of these motions. I need drills, I need to instruction on how to do the motion, not what it is or what it looks like. It’s sort of like learning to drive a car by reading an endless book, It’s just endless waffle to me. The only thing I’ve found is even mildly useful and concise are Synchronicity and Metronomic DSX. (The video in the Primer keeps going on and on about how most people do it subconsciously, how it’s also used in sweeping, how it can be hard to do, how it’s a bit DSX-y etc. and Troy just ripping through lines. I’ve watched it so many times I’ve lost count: Chapter 6 – When To Use DBX Form – Cracking the Code)

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#2

@Inabsentia I’m more or less on the mindset that DBX feels like controlled / well executed string hopping. My warmup incorporates some element of mindful string hopping at the very start.

Maybe lean into the feeling and see what happens!

#3

A couple things:

“DBX” isn’t one thing. There are tons of different techniques out there. And I’m not sure there’s any guarantee all hand/finger types can even do them all. Martin Miller’s technique, for example. I’m not convinced my finger joints even do that.

Two, for the sake fo discussion, let’s narrow it down to one very specific technique: let’s say reverse dart wrist motion. I’m not sure there is any way to actually “teach” the wrist how to make a semicircular pickstroke motion. The big-picture method I think is likely how this is learned: assume the correct form, then attempt lines that need it. Use filming occasionally to see what is happening.

When I do this, I don’t even see a semicircular pickstroke on every note - only some notes, where it is necessary. In no way am I controlling this consciously and in no way did I learn this consciously. So whatever you think you’re seeing in phrases I have filmed, look again and see if you really see “DBX” or just “DBX some of the time when needed”.

So if your goal is to play phrases that sometimes require a semicircular pickstroke, aka “mixed escape” phrases (for lack of a better term), here are my best pieces of general advice:

Don’t worry about “DBX” as something that needs to happen “or else”. Very few phrases actually require a semicircular pickstroke on every single note. The fact that some players actually do this (Molly Tuttle, James Seliga) doesn’t really change the calculus. Because I don’t think we have enough information to know why some players land on certain techniques and others land on others. My best guess is that it is a combination of the needed repertoire, plus repeated trial and error, plus some differences in physical anatomy that load the dice a little. It’s a cool question and you can read some more thoughts on this here:

Re: the calculus, your goal is to play the lines, not to do a motion. So the best plan is to worry first and foremost about fundamentals like smooth pick attack, ease, and speed, in that order. If you want to use a form that we know is compatible with wrist motion, start here:

Once you have easy fast motion with smooth pick attack, move to the next step: Ensure hand sync works on simple repeating patterns above “warp three” where only your fast/automatic technique lives. If the ultimate goal is to play fancy lines that have one note on some strings, but simple chomatic / 3nps patterns aren’t yet locked in and fast with good-sounding attack, the house has no foundation. Synchronicity is an awesome resource for this and will also ferret out issues with fretting you may not know you had:

You will get extremely far with these two things present. If you have fast easy motion and good hand sync, and you knew absolutely nothing about escape, and instead naively tried to play any random pattern with picking, you’d sound shockingly good. This is true even if the Magnet footage showed unexpected things, like displacement - which many elite players do without realizing it. This “going for it with ease” approach is likely how most of the greats learned - including those that sometimes or all-the-times do “DBX”.

That’s the quick overview. Our teaching on the platform follows this pattern. In the coming months we’re making a few tweaks to make this even clearer.

In the meantime, if you’ve gotten that far already and want another pair of eyes on what is happening, absolutely film some clear examples and make a TC on the platform / in your account - we’re happy to take a look.

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#4

@Troy Perfect, thank you so much for this advice Troy. I really appreciate it!

I do have a question though. My barometer for fast picking has always been the Paul Gilbert Intense Rock lick.

image

If I am a DSX player, how can I play this lick at 140+ bpm without DBX motion or economy picking? That’s what’s always nagged me about not being able to DBX.

#5

Swiping is what PG does for that lick. I’m even skeptical that you can play it any other way past, maybe, 120-130bpm.

#6

The PG Lick is a perfect example for this. I kind of hate it, because everyone asks about it but in reality nobody should be starting with it or even really worrying about it.

If you’re coming from a rock / metal background, then I think the best method is still:

  1. motion speed/ease
  2. fast hand sync on a set of core patterns
  3. clean single escape across the strings - any kind, don’t care

Once these things are in place, then you still have to think about all the techniques that allow you tackle “weird” shapes with ease, like:

One-way economy
Two-way economy
Hybrid
Legato + any of the above
etc.

If any of those check out and sound great, I’d move to any phrase that actually legitimately needs more than one escape with pure alternate picking. This is already a pretty small group by this point, and it’s getting smaller by the minute.

But if you really do land in this bucket, you still have to consider:

  1. Which phrase should I start with?
  2. Does 2wps suffice?

Because even things you look at and think “aha, arpeggio = DBX” are very often not. Take for example this phrase:

If you are a USX player, then this phrase is actually pretty easy to do with one additional motion, with high accuracy, and has essentially no speed limit.

If you pass through this bucket and still decide there is some phrase that absolutely needs “DBX”, then you’re at the “try it fast and film it” stage. And you’re going to say, well, but I’m an elbow player, that joint only does one escape, right? Yes! That is true. So if you really, truly need to end up in this very last of buckets, then you want to make sure that you start with a technique that you already know will be compatible with this lastissimo bucket - and wrist technique is one of those techniques.

So that’s the very long answer with the actual answer to your question at the very end: ensure your technique is capable of more than one escape, play the line fast, and film it.

But… do all the other steps first. If you don’t, then you might have missed an easier way to to play the line. And if you skip these easier ways, you won’t have the best assurance that everything is working as it should, since these easier ways are also great as a general test of all your fast playing abilities like fretting, hand sync, etc.

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#7

I don’t think Paul does swiping all the time, for all instances of outside picking. And I’m absolutely certain that “all wrist” players do this often past that speed, and that 2wps (wrist + forearm) does this easily.

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#8

I wish I could heart react twice just for this.

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#9

Gotta work in the college degree somehow, I paid for it!

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#10

Thanks Troy, this is really helpful. I’m going to switch focus to getting better at maybe single direction picking. I’ve put a lot of time and money into this. I even bought a Magnet but I suck at actually knowing what I’m doing (I did put up a TC just now to make sure my picking isn’t just horribly broken). The problem is everything I like (mostly Gilbert, Jeff Loomis etc.) seems to want me to do DBX.

For example, there is a brutal lick in the track Fuzz Universe by Gilbert (1:18) that repeatedly hops between strings, including string skips. I’ve exclusively practiced this lick for an entire month and honestly made maybe 2 bpm of progress (105 bpm). That kind of stuff is what set me on this quest to get DBX down but maybe I have been looking in the wrong place.

#11

Jeff is great and his picking is mostly DSX, like Andy Wood. I’m not aware of anything realy DBX-y in his playing, unless you’re referring to medium speed (for him) stuff like Nevermore’s “Born”.

Fuzz Universe is an awesome tune, and that timestamp is a favorite and some of his tastiest writing. None of it really needs “DBX” though. If anything it’s a classic 2wps application, like Technical Difficulties.

But I really wouldn’t worry about any of this stuff. You’ve got it right that just getting fast clean multi-string picking happening of ANY kind is the best first move. That plus a few pulloffs gets you pretty much all Jeff Loomis scale stuff, or anyone’s scale stuff, really.

We see the TC, we’ll take a look shortly!

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#12

@Inabsentia I am a DSX player, and a fairly terrible one at that - I do the PG “The” lick like this; And even though I love Paul Gilbert and what he was able to do with something as easy as B-C-D-E-D-C, really the only thing about it that is tricky is the string change spot. So I decided to get rid of that. hah!

I had pretty much the same question as you, but I have since changed said question to “How can I do _____ that would normally be done with DBX with my own hybrid DSX single direction economy strategy?” or “How can I do something that seems like it could only be done with DBX, with my DSX options?”

Should be able to get these suckers at least as quick as me, I can’t even economy pick in two directions! Alt pick everything, start on an upstroke! I hope this helps!

The main one;

B–12–13–15–17–15–13

And then the variation

B–12–13–15–17–15–17–15–13

And then

E------------------------14–15–14–12-------------------------
B–12–13–15–17------------------------15–13--------------

#13

Thanks… Interesting approach. I think it’s just a mental block for me, because every shredder I think has solid technique is able to rip that Paul Gilbert line. Troy quite frequently has got people to play it since the very early days, e.g. Marshall Harrison, first Rusty Cooley interview etc. and everyone shreds that line so I should be able to do it too… right?

Now, there’s all these theories that Gilbert is swiping or pushing through the string and muting. Anton Oparin believes that’s how he does it, but I think I trust Troy over him who thinks he doesn’t always swipe.

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#14

Check out the Intentionally Swiping Topic. @qwertygitarr rips the Gilbert lick with USX with swiping and it’s incredible.

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