Hi guys/ gals!
Old time lurker here with a question: I’m currently working on a 2-1-2 pattern that recycles (which makes it a 3-1-3 pattern actually) and I can burst pick it cleanly at 155 bpm (16th notes) with alternate picking. How fast do you think this sort of pattern can be played? 180? 200? above 200?!
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Hey there, welcome. We’ve actually indirectly touched on this question of “How fast can x be played?” in recent posts.
The answer: It depends on volume. Whenever it is you are practicing anything on an instrument, you must, must, must, must have a concrete idea of exactly how many times you will repeat a phrase before concluding.
If you can give us some structure regarding the phrase you want to play, maybe notated out in PDF or Guitar Pro, we can likely give you a pretty good idea based on the clips Troy has provided over the years in addition to our own playing experiences. There are lots of great players on here who can definitely hazard a guess and give you a realistic expectation. Ideally we’d all be able to play at 1000 BPM and have all the technique in the world, but it’s best to have achievable goals and we can likely provide one.
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Thanks man!
this is the pattern i’m working on
Seems like such a trivial detail but it’s so crucial. I have to remind students this all the time. Repeating a phrase for a minute straight is way different than a 5 note burst, rest for 10 seconds, try again, etc.
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Phrases like this can be played at lots of tempos, pretty much anywhere in the 100s, conservatively, using lots of techniques - not just pure alternate but also combinations of sweeping and alternate. I really would not worry about speed at all.
To add to that, I’d just be wary of “burst” practice for motor learning. Clips I’ve seen on here of short rapid takes have looked forced and awkward, and used different form than what the player was actually trying to learn. If you’re only playing a handful of notes super fast how can you possibly know by feel if you’re doing it correctly?
I can pretty much guarantee that getting this with pure alternate is going to look crosspicky when done right, meaning that it is going to require graceful, flat curved motions. Getting sustained wide, flat, graceful motion at any speed is the name of the game. Using faster playing to try and get a sense of what that flat, graceful form should look like is fine - as a tool. Then you’re trying to replicate that smooth motion at a slightly slower speed you can control and habituate.
When in doubt I’d post a clip of the form you’re trying to use, happy to take a look.
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Hi Troy, thanks for chiming in!
Here’s a little clip
Thanks for posting! Very helpful. In general I think this looks solid.
Your form looks good. You’re using the “lightly supinated forearm, wrist deviation motion” approach here, which we discussed in the “Crosspicking With The Wrist” lesson. If you haven’t watched that yet, maybe budget some time to do so - it’s the technical explanation of what you’re doing, which can help provide clarity on how the parts are supposed to be moving.
Level wise, I can barely hear the notes in this clip, especially when you play faster. I think there may be some kind of noise reduction happening which could be making it sound softer than it really is - are you using a web cam? They often have built-in noise reduction.
My main concern is that I see a lot of clips here of acoustic practice, small motions, and nearly inaudible sound, and for me I know I would have a hard time learning that way. I would try more attack, possibly with an amp, to get a good clear read on which notes are being hit and which aren’t. Using just a little more force will create a bigger movement, which will make it easier to see if all the pickstrokes really look equally smooth and consistent. And it will make the movement much easier to “feel” whether it’s right or not.
Some of the pickstrokes here look smaller than the others. I know the hand wants to cheat certain movements sometimes during string changes. Descending inside string changes for example, you will sometimes see the tiniest little jumpy pickstroke that more or less just goes straight up in the air and doesn’t really complete the same arc that the others do. Why does this matter? Well, again, learning to be smooth and consistent is the name of the game. And starting with all the notes looking as uniform as possible will lead to the most uniform sound at all speeds, without certain notes dropping out when you speed up and those cheat notes disappear entirely. To work on this, I would actually try filming a few instances of this phrase where you play all picking motions with a little more force to create a somewhat larger movement, and intentionally equal in size no matter what. If your form is correct, the motions will gracefully get bigger yet still feel smooth, and you won’t hit any wrong strings. Do this at whatever speed feels the absolute smoothest. This is usually a moderate one, and not a super slow one or super fast one. And don’t worry about note correctness so much - just try to make the most graceful, uniform motion. It’s a test.
Re: tempo, the speeding up and slowing down, is that what you’re referring to as bursting? I’m not sure what that’s doing for you. To me it just looks like you’re memorizing the same movements you already have, with those tempo changes embedded in it. Instead, you’re looking for smooth consistent notes - equal movements, equal attack, equal sound, and so on. I would ditch the tempo changes and try the methods above instead.
As another test, you can use a consistently fast speed temporarily to see if your hands figure out something more efficient than what you are currently doing. Basically you just go for it, as smoothly and quickly as you can, and film it up close and see what it looks like. Sometimes what sounds super sloppy actually looks better than you think up close in slow motion - some of the pickstrokes might be wrong or missing, but some might right on and look great. This can give you an idea for something to try at a slower speed utilizing the super-smooth form from the faster yet sloppy speed. Incorporate anything good into slightly slower practice.
Finally, don’t get too hung up on this phrase. If something about this isn’t working, try other versions of it. Like same pattern, but DGB strings. Then same pattern, ADG strings. Make slight form alterations and try again. Slight grip alterations. Test relentlessly until you find something that works super smoothly, and then take that and test again elsewhere.
It’s not about repetitions, it’s about searching for smoothness, being super aware of when you find it, and quickly ditching all the methods that don’t produce it. Again, generally, I think your form looks great and this is all more about how you put it all together and iron it out.
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Hi Troy thank you so so much for your detailed feedback! I really appreciate it and it helps a lot!
Going to try and get myself some practice time sigh
And I’ll post another clip in a couple of weeks
My advice is don’t set expectations because when you set expectations that’s dangerously close to setting limits. I suggest having no self-imposed limits on what you can achieve.
No problem. Again, I think you’re off to a very good start here and there are a lot of people (like me!) who had to work to even figure out the form you are using here.
When you get a moment, try filming the test with the moderate speed and the relaxed, equal-sized motions. Your form looks good, and that test may look good as well. If so, then you will have a strong visual reference point for what the motion should ideally look like when it’s being done most efficiently.
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Update (sort of)
I kept on practicing and I thought it was going well and than…
A couple of days ago I got a headphones amp.
For the last couple of years I’ve been playing an unplugged electric, my amp is in the storage ever since we moved to the new place, and I don’t really have a place for it so it’s going to stay there for the near future.
Anyway, I plugged that headphones amp to the guitar, sat down and…
Cringed like never before.
My timing sucks, my synchronization is non existent, my attack is not even and my tone is terrible.
In short I decided I have no future in this guitar playing thing and I’ll be using my time more wisely if I’ll play pubg instead.
Took a deep breath, got back to the guitar and started working on single string thingies, and that’s what I’m still doing, and probably keep on doing in the foreseeable future.
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Can I suggest a different approach? Your form in the clips up there looks good, so there’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. If you feel like putting it some time on single-string stuff might work, sure, go ahead. But feeding your motor system with variety is how it learns best. This gives you the most opportunity to learn what things feel like when done correctly.
So… How about just playing for fun, all kinds of different things, and not worrying about it too much?
As you do this, you’re keeping an eye out for when it feels like a certain phrase or technique might really be clicking, and when you notice that, you make a note of whatever you’re doing that you think might be causing that. Then, the next time you sit down, try to recreate that “good take” form.
Again, your form up there looks good. If you get a moment to try that lick again with more uniform motions, both moderate speed and fast, I think that would be cool to take a look at.
Keep it fun!
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