Which shredders utilize scales and which utilize licks?

Playing Technique
#1

I understand most all famous shredders do both, but Troy mentions in one of the videos (can’t remember which) that a lot of players lean heavily one way or the other, fundamentally in their playing style.

Just out of curiosity, could we compile a list of players and which side of this fence they spend most of their time?

I’m curious because I’d like to examine what they’re doing and see how I can better develop my own style, though I am pretty beholden to getting around the fretboard with scales at this point.

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#2

I’m pretty much guessing based on what I’m currently remembering, but id t say that Warren DiMartini strikes me as a “licks” shredder. He seems to have some long sustained notes followed by some speedy licks. I’m sure there are many examples in his playing of scalular playing as well but I seem to mostly recall lots of fast licks. I really dig his style a lot.

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#3

I like his style, too. My question is how does a guy like him traverse the fretboard and stay in key?

Vinnie Moore is known to be a scale guy. I guess Yngwie, Eric Johnson, and from what I’ve heard Zakk Wylde would be, too (EJ and ZW doing a lot of pentatonic).

#4

Yeah! I’m not sure how much he knows theory-wise? He may be a player that has learned by patterns. Similar to George Lynch. I watched a YouTube interview with Lynch where he said that he didn’t know that much in he theory dept. He basically learned to get around by trial and error.

#5

The distinction you’re making between using scales and using licks is kind of unclear. I can think of two obvious ways to interpret your question:

  1. Which players know scales and which just memorize licks?
    This interpretation implies that a scale is just a set of notes that defines a key.
  2. Which player play scales in their solos, and which play licks and patterns?
    This interpretation implies that a scale is a series of notes played in order.

In other words, ‘knowing’ a scale and ‘playing’ a scale are different things, and it’s not clear which, if either, you mean by ‘utilizing’ a scale.

From the discussion above, it seems that you’re asking question 1. (I say that because of your question about how they stay in key.) I’d say that any famous or even halfway decent shredder knows scales. In order to write licks and patterns you have to know (at least unconsciously) the notes in the key. Warren, George, EVH, and most other players of that style play licks based on the pentatonic minor, blues, aeolian (natural minor), and dorian scales, which are all very similar to each other and easy to mix together even in a single lick. (George has a tendency to throw in extra notes from outside these scales, though he’s said he doesn’t know how those notes relate to the key.) Getting around the fretboard isn’t a problem if you know which notes are in the scale. You don’t have to play scales to move around the fretboard. You just have to know where the notes in the scale are on the fretboard, you don’t have to play them in order.

@Troy has discussed question 2 in one of the videos (somewhere in season 2, I think; not sure which episode). Few players of that era included long scale runs in their playing because 3nps runs are hard without a well-developed string-switching strategy, which wasn’t widely understood until Troy and the CTC team came along. But that doesn’t mean they don’t know the notes.

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#6

Yngwie’s on the lick/pattern side of the fence. When you start looking at his solos you see that Yngwie has a great big bag of licks that he likes to use. The patterns stay the same but he’ll adjust them to the scale he wants to use.

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#7

Great topic!! One of the things I find most interesting about players like Lynch, DeMartini, and Eddie is that they came up before the idea of an ‘educated’ hard rock guitarist was really a thing. As a result, they sometimes played stuff (mostly in terms of note choice, and fretboard patterns) that a modern player might shy away from. Interchanging the major and minor thirds of the tonic chord, ‘scale’ sequences based on shapes/patterns, and a lack of the longer sequenced 3nps diatonic ideas that became common in the post-Intense Rock era. I’ve transcribed a fair amount of solos by those guys and they almost always have cool surprises that a more educated player might not be as likely to play. Not to say one is better or worse, but it sure is interesting to compare a classic Warren DeMartini/George Lynch solo to one by someone like, say, John Petrucci. That said, it’s sometimes easier to transcribe a solo by a player like Petrucci if only because they are more likely to play all the ‘right’ notes.

I think both approaches are great.

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#8

When I was young and still in a band (playing mostly rhythm) we found this lead guitarist. He couldn’t write rhythms, and would often just back me up with roots, but had tremendous soloing technique. In an attempt to get some of what he had I would try to pick his brain, but he couldn’t explain a bit of it. He just stumbled across shapes and forms and could articulate them cleanly and musically in the most organic way. it sounds crazy, but those guys are out there.

#9

Michael Schenker, although more of a classic shredder, definitely uses a lot of licks. Very few of his runs are scalar based.

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#10

Dunno if this is on topic but when trying to transcribe Vinnie Moore I noticed that he sometimes plays a repeated note between the G and B strings. This is also obvious from his “Speed Accuracy and Articulation” instructional, where in some runs he takes “CAGED shapes” and turns them into 3nps shapes by adding a repeated note on the B string.

PS: Vinnie is tha best, he can do scalar stuff, licks stuff, anything you want :smiley:

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#11

This is interesting to note because of the inherent shift you have to take when ascending/descending over the G/B strings with scales.

Could you illustrate that with a tab example? I’d like to better understand what he’s doing there. The other day I found a Vinnie Moore lick being shown on youtube, and the biggest issue I’ve had with it is traversing the G/B strings when I extrapolated by descending the scale.

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#12

Here’s a made-up example of “Ascending Gilbert 6s” in Gm (easy with UWPS):

E----------------------------------etc...
B-------------------4-6-8-4-6-8----
G-------5-7-8-5-7-8----------------
D-5-7-8----------------------------

Instead of following the scale, Vinnie might occasionally repeat the Eb note when moving to the B string. This cheeky repeated notes here and there make it quite hard to transcribe Vinnie’s fast runs.

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#13

Ronnie LeTekro is another shredder who never sounds as though he’s play scales. He has some burning shred licks and a lot of those crazy trem picked licks.