2WPS redundant in light of cross-picking?

[PickingApprentice]

Bit of a crappy title and apologies in advance if this is a long boring post, but I wonder if anyone has found themselves in a similar position?

After working on 2WPS, almost a year ago I discovered that I had developed a crosspicking mechanic (see the below link if interested)

Crosspicking or string hopping?

I’m making good progress with 2WPS - on a good day I can get 16ths to around 170bpm. However, I have just started playing a pentatonic warm-up without paying any attention to my pick slanting. I then tried to play it with no (or very little) pickslant and it seems that there is a curve in the pick movement. Is it a crosspicking movement that I can develop? Or is it string hopping? Or slight pick slanting? Any advice would be great!

As part of that post @Troy confirmed that the mechanic was worth making habitual. I have been on a restricted guitar diet since that point when my daughter was born, but now getting back into the fray. Without much practice, the crosspicking mechanic can reach similar speeds as my 2WPS (max 16th notes @180bpm on a very good day) for simple scaler lines except the 2WPS sounds more articulate when played well. I know that I want to continue to develop crosspicking for the 1nps stuff, but wonder whether there is still any benefit to continuing 2WPS? Seeing as:
1 - Even some great crosspickers seem to utilise 2WPS at the top end shreddy moments and as far as I am aware, the kiry is still out on whether crosspicking mechanics can match 2WPS scalar lines for speed at the extreme upper limits.
2 - 2WPS feels (at this point) solid when done well

I suppose that a critique video is probably the best way forward, I’ll try and get one done, but would love to get the opinions of the legends that frequent this forum!

The pro of placing focus placed solely on crosspicking is that I seem to be have the crosspicking mechanic on tap (I noticed that when I attempted DWPS I was actually crosspicking) and baking in pickslanting is something I can generally ignore.

Just to clarify goals, I could die a happy man if I could play 16ths at around 208 bpm and 1nps at approx 160 bpm.

Thanks in advance!

[Drew]

Hmm. Two thoughts.

1 - Even some great crosspickers seem to utilise 2WPS at the top end shreddy moments and as far as I am aware, the kiry is still out on whether crosspicking mechanics can match 2WPS scalar lines for speed at the extreme upper limits.

I think this is a big part of it - we DON’T know if crosspicking can get as fast as TWPS, and while the fact a lot of top shredders with a crosspicking movement do move to a more conventional pickslanted approach at max speeds suggests the answer may be no, it doesn’t prove it. Either way as you’re clearly finding, you can get crosspicking up to a pace where you may be able to crosspick fast enough that it becomes kind of an academic question.

The other part of it, though, is I’m not sure I’ve really got a good handle on how to palm mute while crosspicking. Meanwhile, my “default” approach, TWPS with a dominant UWPS orientation and a rotation to facilitate an upstroke escape when needed, definitely lends itself to fast palm-muted runs. I’m sure it’s possible to do it - Troy explained an approach around here a while back I need to go back and see if I can figure out what he’s talking about - but it may be harder.

[PickingApprentice]

Thanks for the reponse Drew. Considering that I can use the crosspicking mechanic with a static pickslant (after all I think I have been doing when I have been attempting DWPS, I’m wondering whether I have actually been doing 2WPS in the strictest sense anyway, given that the pick path must be quite similar. Does the 2WPS sound better purely because I have practiced it more? Probably.

we DON’T know if crosspicking can get as fast as TWPS, and while the fact a lot of top shredders with a crosspicking movement do move to a more conventional pickslanted approach at max speeds suggests the answer may be no, it doesn’t prove it

What speed would someone need to reach with crosspicking to confirm (in a general sense) that it can be as fast?

[PickingApprentice]

I could also be swiping like a mofo!

[JonJon]

Just to clarify goals, I could die a happy man if I could play 16ths at around 208 bpm

Thanks in advance!

just wondering, did they outlaw 1wps where u live? lol

[Brendan]

Sounds like whatever you’re doing is working pretty well! Agree with Drew, some of this may be more of an academic question. Even the distinction between 2WPS and crosspicking can be kind of academic; it may be the motions for both are very similar. Probably fine to keep working on both unless one feels a lot better in which case I guess go with that!

This topic is interesting re: possible differences in “maintenance costs” with various techniques:

Maintenance costs of DWPS, UWPS, TWPS and crosspicking

After about 3y of CTC treatment I have practiced a fair amount of DWPS, UWPS and TWPS stuff (I haven’t touched crosspicking yet - still too scary). I am finding that the one-way techniques can be maintained with relatively little practice (except perhaps the control of timing in sweeps), while my TWPS suffers as soon as I leave it alone for a few days. What about the rest of you coders?

So it could be if multiple techniques work well for you, but time is limited and one seems to have much lower maintenance costs, may be worth focusing more on that. This is probably different for different players though.

[PickingApprentice]

Haha! Wanted dead or alive mate!
1WPS is possible for some licks, but I do struggle to maintain 200bpm for any real length of time at present and I am terrible at using the ‘escape hatch’ pull offs Yngwie style and economy picking EJ style.

[JonJon]

well yeah I was just implying that ALL of us can cook up some nice 1way licks for our fastest runs. No sin in that

[PickingApprentice]

Thanks Brendan, I’ll check it out!

[PickingApprentice]

well yeah I was just implying that ALL of us can cook up some nice 1way licks for our fastest runs. No sin in that

Definitely agree my friend. It is a good call.

[Drew]

What speed would someone need to reach with crosspicking to confirm (in a general sense) that it can be as fast?

I think it’s less hitting an arbitrary speed as a bunch of players very proficient in both consistently topping out at roughly the same speed with each approach.

[JonJon]

dont we already sort of know that the top players Troy has filmed tend to go into more of a 1wps or 2wps deal when they really top out? in other words at TOP speed the x-picking goes away doesnt it?

[PickingApprentice]

in other words at TOP speed the x-picking goes away doesnt it?

Not that I’m holding you to it, but are you indicating that you would expect that if I were to go for crosspicking in general and pushed to my limit, I would inevitably transfer to 1/2WPS anyway?

One thing I feel (physically) is that the act of rotating in 2WPS is somewhat of a trigger for activating the change of pick direction, not just a means to allow it to escape the string plane - like a fast twitch response -especially when the lick is a repeating figure like 6s across 2 strings. I suppose because I’m not string hopping. I wonder if that has any bearing on it… then again I don’t even know wherher this paragraph makes sense to anyone - feel free to ignore the babbling of a sleep deprived man!!

[JonJon]

nah im just surmising that xpicking by nature isnt quite as efficient as 1/2wps and that IIRC we have seen in the filming of Martin Miller and/or Andy Wood and/or others that indeed when they go for TOP speed that the xpicking smiley arc tends to disappear

of course, that being said, I aint 'bout to sift thru the footage for proof lol.

[PickingApprentice]

Thanks everyone for your input. I’m gonna put some time into this and see what transpires. I think I’m overthinking it generally…

[JonJon]

well since you are a MIM member, u can simply go thru the footage of M Miller and Andy Wood and whomever else is known for crosspicking…then also look and see when/why they still use 2wps

[PickingApprentice]

Yeah, a memory refresh is definitely required, many thanks!

[Drew]

It does… but whether that’s because you can’t crosspick that fast, or because (since it seems that picking technique is developed in response to the things you’re trying to play) players who can do both developed crosspicking mechanics to play the sort of mid-to-upper tempo stuff where you’re jumping from string to string a lot, but separately were working on ultra-fast single string lines, and tended to develop linear slant techniques for that, and they just never had any reason to converge the technique… Kind of an interesting question.

[Troy]

Firstly, keep in mind that when you use “two way pickslanting”, you do actually make double-escape pickstrokes at the switchover points. That’s the whole “down, up, rotate” business. So the term “crosspicking” as we’ve been using it is totally not clear as to whether we’re talking about the pickstroke type, or the playing style where you only make that type of pickstroke in longer sequences. Not to mention that “crosspicking” has a related but slightly different meaning in bluegrass circles, where it refers to the phrase more so than the motion.

For these reasons, we’re going to stop using the term “crosspicking” to describe the double-escape pickstroke. For now, let’s just say “double escape pickstroke” when we mean the curved motion. And if you want to know whether it’s possible to make whole sequences of those pickstrokes at a fast tempo, I think simply asking that will be a lot clearer to everyone - especially those who may not be knee-deep in our material yet and not get what “crosspicking” means in our version of the world. Once again, this is all my fault and I apologize. The new Primer material will make this all nice and clear.

All that being said…

…keep in mind there is no single picking motion that is “double escape”. You can do this any number of ways, with arm, wrist, fingers, and combinations thereof. So what is true for one type of body motion may not be true for others. For example, forearm rotation creates a curved motion with respect to the strings. We’ve seen players like EVH do it at 210 beats per minute with giant pickstrokes which are more than large enough to cover any kind of distance you could want to travel across the strings. Jimmy Herring’s picking motion has a forearm component, and operates in this plane. We’ve looked at that in detail here:

Crosspicking With The Wrist And Forearm

So there is no reason to assume that a certain pickstroke type has a speed limit. Certain body motions may have different capabilities, but the pickstroke type itself really doesn’t.

[PickingApprentice]

Thanks for the post Troy - quite a positive outlook in my opinion. Interestingly enough, even in the 3 days since my original post, I have seen an improvement in the speed of my double escape pickstrokes. I am attributing it mainly to “getting out of my own way”, experimenting more and getting inspired by watching the Andy Wood interview again. Its funny how watching something makes your mind click into action and subconciously influence the rest of your body! I’m also trying to remove the fear of trying to pick between 2WPS and double-escape picking. I seem to be able to do both (although I suspect my 2WPS utilises the double escape mechanic more than I thought), so why not have my cake and eat it? I really see the appeal of the double escaped pickstroke for 80% of the time as there is less to assimilate into my playing other than keep the mechanic consistent (which is the main obstacle it seems).

Many thanks again to all that have posted.