About gear and person size/style

Gear
#1

Hi everyone,

I just found out about Troy after a EricHaugenGuitar recommendation.

I am currently building a mustang style guitar and have only experienced 25.5 and 24.75 so far.

I am yet to stat developing my technique and it was pretty interesting to find this place, but my main question is really about gear now.

Being a 5’8 person and having always felt 25.5 (and even 24.75) are unnecessarily big I decided to build the guitars with a luthier.

My main fear about anything below 24.4 is that I am mostly a grunge/metal player and that’s my only trick to be honest. I am a really simple player restricted to those styles and don’t wan’t my tone harmed, but want maximum ergonomy.

Current options are 24’’ with 1.63 inches nut width (and proportional string spacing), or 24.4’’ with 1.65mm inches nut width and 34.3mm string spacing.

My question is: should I get rid of the fear of having tone affected too much for those styles and stick with the 24’’/1.63?

Will I feel those are too small, considering my size?

Is 24’4’’/1.65 a more balanced option all around?

I can make 3 custom guitars, but I really wish I would nail the model in the first one.

Random info:
All of them are gonna have tune-o-matic bridges (kinda irrelevant info).
I have played a 24’’ squier mustang (35mm body thickness) once and felt a little bit crowded in the first fret and body too thin.

I hope you guys understand how important this is, I absolutely ergonomy is key and every detail is supreme.

Thank you so much,

Felipe

#2

I have no idea and I’m not sure that you’ll know, either, until you build it. I assume you’ll use heavier strings to compensate for the reduction of length. It seems to me that you should hopefully play some guitars setup like this for a while to get an idea if they’re right for you. There is the wood and pickup question, of course, I suspect those will impact the tone.

I’d say you should play a Mustang for a while to get used to the length and tone, I’m not sure. The fret spacing on a Mustang will clearly be right for 24" guitars.

I think that Troy might play a Mustang-length scale, but I don’t recall. I think he might prefer a slightly shorter scale for some reason.

#3

Hi, although I’m a guitar player, I’m predominantly a luthier/tech so I can tell you a bit about the effects of scale length, and pose some, hopefully helpful, questions:

1: Ergonomics - you’ve already got this one. You have to find a size that fits you. Your height doesn’t matter, its actually more a blend of the length of your arms and the height at which you like to play. I’ve had so many people say that their guitar feels too big, but as soon as they pull their strap up a bit higher, it feels super comfortable. I have pretty small hands, and I really like 25" scales ideally.

Question - how high/low do you have your guitar

2: String tension - at 25.5" scale length, your low E (.048 gauge) will have ~20lbs of tension in standard tuning. at 24" scale length, you’re only getting ~17.7lbs of tension, which will make it feel much, much floppier at the same pitch. You’d have to up your string gauge to a .052 just to make up the extra tension, which will have a big effect on ergonomics (simply by being a bigger string). That said, it isn’t a game over at all, you just have to be aware of the effect. You’ll find that thicker strings have less clear treble, and more bass/lower mids. You can EQ that away mostly on your amp just by cutting the bass a tad and boosting the treble a bit.

Questions - What tuning and strings do you currently use?
Would you mind moving to a heavier set?

  1. Fret size - yup, you nailed it, the frets will get smaller as the scale length does. This can make it much much harder to comfortably play further up the neck unless you have particularly thin fingers. Again, not a game over at all, depends on your physiology.

tldr - if you make up for the loss of string tension, you shouldn’t see any real tonal change (certainly not anything that can’t be EQ’d away on the amp), but there are other considerations before going for an unusual scale length.

#4

Honestly, I really think you probably nailed the answer.

I am gonna build 4 guitars total so I think I will start with 24’’ 41.5 nut width and go from there

#5

I am really thankful for the time and effort you put into this answer.

I really came down to the old ancient question: does all the external factor (like scale length) affect tone?

First of all, I like playing 0.09’s on strats and les pauls (lower tension person). But depending on how doable it is, I can withstand playing with 10’s on a mustang.

Now, you made the most crucial point that has been killing me with uncertainty: Given the same conditions “same tension” will it sound similar, at least 85% of what a les paul with high output pickups sound?

This is probably the most important question and you, with your expertise, said it will. This is very important. It’s not easy to find people who have tried mustangs with high output pickups out there (if you are one reading this please give feedback as well).

So the thing is:

Yes, between a les paul and a mustang, I prefer the ergonomics of a 24’’ mustang. Can something in between be the ideal? Maybe. If I can get my tone in it, I will probably not care if it’s 24’’ or 24.4’’.

I have noticed the mustang will fit better for me is the kurt cobain mustang which has 41.3 nut width. I don’t know, I simply feel it.

So I paid to build 4 guitars total:

I will start with 24’’ 41.3’’ the first one. It’s gonna be the prototype. Body gonna be 39’’ thick. String spacing gonna be proportional with a 41.3’’ nut.

I will try it for a while but I honestly feel like this is final. I dont think I am going higher with either 24.4/41.3’’. If I can get a good sound for metal, I really don’t feel like going higher.

I also have to remember troy plays 22.5. In his conception, he believes 24’’ can still be considered “big” and feel very similar to a les paul. While I don’t agree 100% (it is a lot of difference), I can understand the point he is making about: “it still can be too big/if you feel a les paul is too big, 24’’ definitely won’t feel too small”. Every little information I got out there counts :slight_smile: .

The luthier info about not changing sound enough is CRUCIAL. Can I deal with 10’s? Honestly, 10’s in a mustang is not the same as 10’s in a Les Paul, and the answer is definitely yes. (Will it be too different from 0.09’s in a les paul?)

Again, thanks a lot.

Felipe

#6

Hi Felipe,

I also use lighter strings (0.0085" at 25.5" scale) for ergonomic reasons, and I can tell you the following without a doubt:

Strings do make a difference, but not an enormous one, to tone. The thinner a string, the better the treble response, and the less bass it has (which, for a guitar imo, is a good thing). The biggest tonal difference you’ll find is in your pickup choice, but hear me out on this:

Everything can be EQ’d to suit

There does come a point where strings are too floppy to resonate properly though. I can’t say for sure what that point is, but here is some useful info for you on that.

If you like 0.009" sets on a strat or les paul, that is between 14.4 and 13.6 lbs of tension. A 0.0095" string will give you 14.3lbs of tension at 24.4" scale, so you won’t even need to jump up to a 0.010" to match tension.

For reference, I like 0.0085" on a strat, but I feel the bass end is not tense enough.

This is my personal custom, and it uses a set of 9s at 25" to 26" scale. That way, the bass strings are spanker and tighter, and the treble strings still feel very slinky and how I want them.

When I was growing up, all the wisdom was to use very heavy strings because Stevie Ray Vaughan did it, and you can’t have good tone without at least 10s or 11s. This is impossible for me, so I worked out what strings I was comfortable with. Don’t listen to opinion, just work out what works for you. But here’s the final kicker:

Even if heavier strings sounded better, I would play worse with them, which would sound worse. I sound at my best when I’m most comfortable, and so will you.

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#7

It may not address all your questions, but you may find some of the information in the old thread linked below helpful:

#8

Beautiful guitar. Yea, I left the strings rabbit hole and stuck with 0.09’s because anything above that was just too much work for me. Actually I have even used 8’s and even 7’s. I could easily stick with 8’s when it comes to comfort, for real.

What about 24’’? I can see going 10’s there, would it differ too much? I don’t want the sound to get wobbly because the tension is too low…

#9

0.0095s would work at 24", they will still have more tension than 0.009s on 24.75" scale.

https://tension.stringjoy.com/ may help you out here, you can adjust the scale length and see the effect on tension. My advice would be to set it up for 0.009s at 24.75" and then write down the values, then find the lightest set you can at 24" that still gives you comparable tension.

#10

Thank you very much! Will dig.

#11

Very welcome. Please let me know how you get on. Also would be curious to see the guitars once built :slight_smile:

#12

I will show, they will be stunning. I believe they will be 24’’ and I will most certainly be happy with it.

#13

I think what tuning you plan to play in is really going to be the driving factor here. You CAN push things surprisingly far, and I’ve heard great recordings of a Les Paul (24.75") tuned down to low A (here I’m thinking of Bruce Dickinson’s excellent “The Chemical Wedding,” and the thunderous guitar tone on that album).

BUT - this starts to impact some other considerations too. For one, on shorter scales, if you tune lower, you’re going to need heavier and heavier strings, and sourcing strings that heavy can be a little tough. There’s also… like, if you wanted a low-A tone on a 24" scale guitar that was deep, clear, and had a lot of impact and attack to it, that gets harder to pull off with very thick strings on a short scale neck. The guitar sound on “The Chemical Wedding” absolutely rules… but it’s deep, thick, sludgy, and Sabbath-y, and not the sort of tight technical metal tone that a lot of players want for low tuned guitars. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but everything is a balancing act, and running a very short scale is going to require certain choices elsewhere (like, I’d probably want bright, lower output pickups, if I were using it for low-tuned riffing).

but in theory, yeah, you should absolutely be able to get a good sounding tone out of a short scale guitar, with certain reasonable limits (like, you’re not going to get a 24" scale guitar to sound right covering Meshuggah in low F#).

#14

Thanks for the input. Yes, that’s very relevant because one of the guitars will be destined for downtuning. Drop D will do 80% of the job, but drop C and drop B would be nice, and I don’t think these will be possible in a 24’’, what you think?

If you tell me Drop c and B are possible, even if I need 0.11 for example, I’ll be very happy. Also, the type of songs with drop C and B are Soundgarden-ish, which are more sluggish than attack-focused. Open C is also higher tension than B so…

0.10 or 0.11 string feels pretty optimal and not over the top for what I plan with this guitar. Maybe I don’t need to go to 24.4"…What you think?

#15

So, if you’re after a grungy, sludgy Soundgarden-like tone, then yeah, that helps a lot here. In C or B I suspect you’re going to want 12s or 13s, but you should be able to find existing strings that’ll handle that depth.

There ARE existing guitars out there with shorter scales you could experiment on first, thoug, before building customs, and I’d strongly suggest trying a few of them before committing to a custom build. A Mustang is a 24" neck, as I recall, so grabbing one of those and experimenting a bit would make a lot of sense here.

#16

I realized I hadn’t finished my last sentence in my reply.

Well, good, I can do 12’s or 11’s on this particular guitar.

I am really willing to have the extra work so I can have the 24’’ ergonomy.

I am very likely going to follow through with this plan and I’ll let you all know the results

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