Advice: Reasons why pick is getting stuck on the upstroke?

[ASTN]

When I started to use pick I was “silent” picker. That time I noticed that I often miss a string on upstroke. After watching some videos (including ‘Cracking the Code’ series) I’ve changed my strategy and now I try to pick as strong as possible, which changed my technique. So first time I had the same problem - pick stucked on upstroke. Then after some practice problem had gone… until I decided to learn DWPS. And now I have it again ((

In my case problem is in trajectory of my pick. While I’m using DWPS I still use motion in a plane that is parrallel to guitar body. So my pick on upstroke is like a shovel. And you can’t have a good picking with a shovel.

[kounistou]

Hi!

As Troy mentioned in this thread, there are three axes that define the way your pick approaches the string. And there is the trajectory that the pick travels after you hit the string. For example, my DWPS improved once I stopped anchoring my pinkie on the body of the guitar and having floating picking hand fingers. I found out that anchoring is influencing and limiting the trajectory and making it different between the high and low strings. I am not telling you to do the same. But I am recommending that you experiment and see what helps you achieve consistent DWPS.

With that being said, I still fell uncomfortable on the A and low E strings when doing DWPS. Still working on it. But I am starting to think that it’s the nature of the guitar that the lower strings are a bit harder with fast picking because I feel that my whole hand is floating. Maybe somebody can comment on that. I even thought about extending the bridge vertically to have an extra element to rest my palm on.

[ASTN]

I get more or less correct picking when rotating and placing hand in such manner that I just can’t use clean wrist deviation or elbow motion. So I start to use rotating and it works - there’re downstrokes to guitar body and upstrokes away from guitar. It works until I try to increase speed… that’s where I stuck.

1st string is definetely the easiest one to experiment with DWPS. But when I use my usual approach it seems like 6th and 5th string becomes easier to pick fast. I think it’s because of my anchoring - I use edge of palm and that part of palm which is near the thumb (I don’t know how to call it in english)

[AndrewWhitfield]

I do that too ASTN! My pick strokes are more arc instead of linear. So when i DWPS the upstroke has that shovel effect you describe, which becomes way more prominent when i increase the speed.

[AndrewWhitfield]

When you guys hold the pick are you clenching the pick - sort of forming a fist? Or is the thumb and finger that grips the pick extended?

As ive been experimenting with my picking issues i find extending the thumb and finger creates more slack as it hits and attempts to cross the string and can aggravate my issue described above. But then if i clench too closely i tend to pick more across the strings rather then picking toward the body on the downstroke, which can also cause the pick to get stuck on the up-stroke (the shovel effect mentioned above).

What path does your pick stroke follow across the strings? Eg. Vertical straight line = top of middle pickup to bottom - OR - Diagonal = top left to bottom right.

Have you found picking becoming more awkward when fretting higher up the neck? Is it just a case of persisting through practice that will eventually resolve this?

[ASTN]

You can see my grip in my video on this forum:

ASTN Tremolo Clip

I don’t know if it would be useful… My friend with an iphone visited me today so I had a chance to record some slo-mo videos. It’s my 220bpm playing. Sorry for the absence of audio. I’m not a pro in video editing. To make a record I had to change my sitting place and my guitar position. Moreover I tried to use more edge picking.

It’s not very extended and not very close. I just hold the pick in such way that it wouldn’t jump out of my hand.

Looks like my pick moves diagonally, though it’s not so obvious near the 6th string. Besides I think with such grip and movement (wrist deviation or elbow) you can’t have an edge picking without diagonal trajectory, and I have some edge picking.

[Troy]

When you guys hold the pick are you clenching the pick - sort of forming a fist? Or is the thumb and finger that grips the pick extended?

We tried to sort out the universe of pick grips when we did our pick grip poll. Run through the questions and you’ll see the photos:

https://troygrady.com/2016/10/24/whats-your-pick-grip-take-the-poll/

If one of those matches the questions you’re asking, this may help communicate to others what it is you’re trying to ask. If what you’re referencing is not present, let us know so we can add it. Eventually we want to hammer these out into a reference that anyone can look at and say, OK, I’m doing X, Y, or Z.

[uglijimus]

For example, my DWPS improved once I stopped anchoring my pinkie on the body of the guitar and having floating picking hand fingers. I found out that anchoring is influencing and limiting the trajectory and making it different between the high and low strings.

hmm…i think i do this when I tremelo pick. I will have to look into this, thanks!

[mr_fisch93]

So I’ve copied what I think is your pick grip in the first photo below. On the pick grip poll this is called pad to pad. I moved away from this grip because I found that the joint closest to my fingernail on the index finger would hyperextend slightly when doing an upstroke, this made the pick require more force on the upstroke giving it a sticking sensation. To circumvent that I had to grip the pick harder and that just made alternate picking in general more difficult.

I went for this grip instead. This pad to side on the grip poll

This affored me more control over the pick without additional grip strength because the knuckle closest to my fingernail can’t hyper extend. I think angle pad grip would achieve this as well, I just ended up with pad to side out by chance when experimenting around before I knew about CTC. Try some alternative pick grips from the poll and mix and match them with the three picking angles and hopefullly you will have some luck in removing the sticky upstroke

[Troy]

pad to pad

This first photo looks a little more like angle pad, which is what I use most of the time. This is when the pick is sort 45 degrees on the index finger - not quite side, not quite flat to the pad. Pad to pad would be totally flat on both fingertips.

To make matters more complicated, there is probably a spectrum of variations in between the two.

I really want to hammer out exactly what all the pick grip variables are in common usage. It’s such a fundamental thing and it’s amazing how loosey goosey we are in describing it / teaching it / etc.

[mr_fisch93]

You’re totally right, I probably relaxed my hand when I took the photo! Ending up in a more angle pad position. When I actually play in this position my finger and thumb are very much pad to pad. Some sort of glossary of terms would be very useful. As you’ve said there’s so many ways of describing these things and getting everyone on the same page would make the whole troubleshoot/teaching process far easier

[ASTN]

It’s hard to describe pick grip without any photo. It’s too many degrees of freedom, so it’s not easy to make a classification that wouldn’t be too complex and would be descriptive enough at the same time.

I experimented a bit with upstrokes last day. Long story short - it looks like if you don’t want to radically change you way of playing then you have to use ‘cheats’. By cheats I mean any approach that makes pick stroke easier. I tried increase “lean” angle towards the neck - it works. I tried to increase “edge picking” angle - it works too.

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Hey Guys! I messaged @Troy earlier today and didn’t realize that my question was asked already here. I didn’t have the right terminology i.e. leaning and glad I found this post so much. Nice to see that upstrokes have been discussed. Mine aren’t ghosted but they are weak and sometimes slow me down because I feel I am fighting them. Seems like an odd topic but that’s the beauty of CTC, we try to figure out all the nuances of guitar… So like @AndrewWhitfield my upstrokes are stuck on some alternate picking passages using DWPS. Especially the low E and A. Stinks!

To clarify what lean is, if you could post some updated photos or even a short video on what lean LOOKS like it would be great. Let’s say the pick is parallel and horizontal to the strings. Neutral would be the best term? Does lean mean the pick stays on its horizontal access and the point of the pick either points towards the bridge or the headstock? Again, staying on the horizontal plane? DWPS UWPS we know, and edge picking goes 45 degrees, I can’t imagine what else lean could be?

I’ve attached some photos my exaggerated DWPS movement only, Edge picking only, DWPS WITH Edge, and what I THINK is the lean. Note again everything is exaggerated for the photos and yes I need a tan desperately lol.

Best to everyone and look forward to hearing from you all.

***2 Things I forgot to add- 1st, if I think I am right on what lean is, that implies we are striking the string using the sides of the pick? Not the point directly? That’s why I had my pen at the point of possible pick to string contact. #2. Again if I am correct, I find that I am using a headstock lean when DWPS, anyone else?

[mr_fisch93]

A hastily put together video for you. I’ve also dropped some photos below to highlight lean. From you last photo it looks like you are using a bit of neck lean, in my opinion. I find this lean angle to produce more “stickiness” on upstrokes when using the edge picking direction where you bend the thumb (as opposed to the Benson style) than bridge lean, i think because the pick hooks onto the string on the upstroke whereas with bridge lean the string rolls off the edge of the pick. Shout if you have more questions.

[Bluedude2000]

Quick question…does bridge lean mean the butt of the pick faces the bridge or the tip of the pick faces the bridge?

And does one have a benifit vs the other or is it more of a comfort thing?

[mr_fisch93]

Butt off the tip towards the bridge. I find bridge lean to be preferable for fast playing but I suspect it is a comfort thing - I just find I get less snag in that orientation.

[Bluedude2000]

@mr_fisch93 Great! That’s what I thought. I think this might be the missing link for why I’m not playing my fastest a lot of the time.

This may have been covered before, but any scientific reason this works better than a more neutral position w no lean?

[BullseyeBrewtality]

Hey mate! THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the detailed photos and video for all of us to learn from. Your explanation of lean makes total sense now. I just picked up my guitar for a couple of minutes and I agree I am using slight neck lean. Correct me if I am wrong, but using lean incorporates more of the sides of the pick instead of the tip? Hence a smoother downstroke and upstroke as the tip of the pick is not in direct contact? You said that neck lean may produce more stickiness when using edge picking w/ bent thumb. How so? Because the tip of the pick is making more direct contact? It may be academics but I enjoy the thought process and analysis. *Side note I have been working on using my thumb for slow picking where you keep it straight against the string, play a downstroke, the thumb bends towards the bridge, and then comes back up. I can now see that has a neutral to bridge lean in that technique. *

If you look at my DWPS technique post, I have been struggling to get one part of the Sold My Soul solo ala Zakk Wylde lick up to tempo. It is 5 7 played twice on the low E, repeats on the A, and then same on the D ending with 7 9 twice on the D. Aside from Troy awesomely correcting me on my DWPS, another big issue I feel has been my upstrokes. Either I have been playing them too soft because they get stuck and I want to avoid that happening as a crutch or my timing is off because I am anticipating the upstrokes. Then it falls apart lol.

One thing I admire about Zakk is how he can just attack the strings with such force and overall his notes are super clear and accurate. Not an MAB accurate but you get my drift. I wonder if he unknowingly incorporates lean into his picking? Seems some of our fellow brothers here have had success with lean in their smoothness of playing. Zakk even with his “wylde picking” he still gets in and OUT of the strings smoothly. Thoughts?

Hope this isn’t asking too much, could you maybe try at a reasonable tempo how you would play that Zakk lick with a short video? In your video around 1:20 I see DWPS, edge, and almost a neutral lean? For the Zakk lick would you use some edge picking and what kind of lean? Heading early for bed (2am wake up for work), will post an updated video for lean critique and again thank you

[mr_fisch93]

No problem, happy to help

@BullseyeBrewtality

You said that neck lean may produce more stickiness when using edge picking w/ bent thumb. How so?

This is just my opinion. But if you hold the pick that way and look at the angle it makes against the string you can see it sort of hooks onto it when you do an upstrokes. Whereas down strokes glide over thanks to the angle the leading edge of the pick (the side facing the floor) makes, the trailing edge (the side facing the roof) will hook onto the string on an upstroke requiring more force to push through the string. Bridge lean seems to alleviate this problem some what by reducing the angle of the hook. I’ve done a video that hopefully illustrates what i’m getting at. @Bluedude2000, this probably answers your question too.

Bridge lean vs. neck lean - Troy Grady Forum

I tried to find a video Zakk Wyldes picking hand close up. Linked below, it appears to me that he is using some bridge lean.

Zakk Wylde Showing His Skills on a Acoustic Guitar " A Minor Pentatonic "

I just used my normal picking setup to play the lick you mention. DWPS, slight bridge lean (somewhere around 45 degrees) and edge picking to taste. I think the edge picking somewhat disguises how much bridge lean there is, the camera angle also doesn’t show it that well. I play the lick slow through to fast and then there is a slo-mo of the fast version at the end

Sold my soul lick - Troy Grady Forum

[Bluedude2000]

@mr_fisch93 brilliant tutorial on neck va bridge lean! Makes sense to me.