Just trying to make sure I have the terminology down. I understand DSX and USX, and I get DBX (a motion that produces an escape on both upstrokes and downstrokes).
My understanding is that Mixed Escape is a picking technique that is capable of switching between DSX and USX - like the Two-way pickslanting players like Andy Wood uses, or the Gilbert Mixed Escape as detailed in the Primer. Is that correct?
I find the terminology to be endlessly confusing, but I suspect that it means that they usually use a single-escaped technique and sometimes tweak the motion that comes towards the body that usually ends up trapped to end up free, along the lines of DBX.
It’s a mix. Basically this; utilize your “main” single escape wherever humanly possible because it works for the majority of one’s playing situations. And then, for those instances when one NEEDS a DBX stroke to succeed a line, utilize it then. A mix.
Sort of…Mixed escape is a fairly general term. You could switch between a USX and DSX motion, but Mixed escape can also be a single escape technique, say dsx for example, which is capable of making an upstroke string change, by changing the direction the wrist is moving. Just for that sting change. In that case, you are not really switching between usx and dsx.
So “Mixed Escape” encompasses both (techniques that change between USX and DSX motion at will) and (primary + secondary motion, where one escape motion is used most of the time, but a small helper motion is used to facilitate awkward string changes).
Right?
I’m sure Troy would probably say that these kinds of distinctions are getting too into the weeds and aren’t useful in a practical sense, but it would really be nice to have some kind of basic glossary and consistent language usage across various sources of information here.
Hearing “Double Escape” “Mixed Escape” “Primary and Secondary Motion” “Two Way Pickslanting” etc. is confusing - and I’m somebody who has been reviewing the material, youtube channel, and forums for over a year now.
Let’s continue your DSX example, where an upstroke ended up free instead of trapped. Is the next motion a downstroke from free → trapped? If so, is that somewhat like switching to USX? Or is the next motion something else? 
CtC is constantly evolving, and one of the “downsides” of that is conflicting terminology/understanding occurring over time. I think Troy and team are doing the absolute best possible job here - you have to keep in mind this is pioneering levels of technical analysis, and it’s all relatively new, so things are just bound to get murky here and there.
That said, my own personal opinion - this stuff is in fact too complicated to get ultra-defined about every last detail. It is impossible, there is no ultimate truth, getting too crazy with minutiae will only prevent you from actually playing music.
I will add: nobody seems to actually do this, change from DSX to USX within a single phrase. Andy Wood, for example, does not have a continuous USX motion. It appears wrist players that can seemingly change escapes at will shift between DSX and DBX as needed. This is a generality, I’m sure there are counter-examples.
But, in the Pickslanting Primer, isn’t that exactly what Troy is explaining when he’s talking about Gilbert Style Mixed Escape? He literally demonstrates using DSX and USX in a single phrase to play 3nps scales.
At 1:30 in the video “Identifying Gilbert Mixed Escape Wrist Motion,” that’s exactly what he describes, then does.
Does he? Watch it at half-speed - the motion becomes very flat to my eyes, not jumping between USX and DSX. This vid also uses the abandoned clockface system - again, things are murky. lol
What’s taught here most recently, if you watch the RDT tutorial, is a wrist motion that can go between DSX and DBX. What is the difference between that and going between DSX and USX? No fast trapped downstrokes. This just appears to be the most common way of playing mixed escape phrases.
Wait, so the Pickslanting Primer AND the Clockface system are both outdated and wrong?
Man, I’m always helping new players on reddit and other sites, and I really want to point people towards this material (because it’s head and shoulders above anybody else), but it’s so hard because even I don’t understand what’s outdated and what’s not. And this is after a year of working with this material.
It would be so nice to have a simple free video or page that just breaks down the overall concepts behind the material, so you could point people at it and say “That’s what CtC is all about, and why it’s great. These are all the different concepts it teaches.”
I think the clockface system was a great way of describing wrist motion, I believe it was put aside because too many people found it confusing. It also doesn’t really effectively capture the “whole picture”, since the same clockface motion could get different escapes depending on levels of supination/pronation. So, RDT/DT started to get used instead.
That said, RDT is used to describe players who have vastly different looking, and functioning, motions. Again, it’s all imperfect.
So, everything on the main page of the Primer is most up-to-date. When you start looking in the reference section (where the Gilbert vid you brought up is) it can get weird, you just have to be discerning. It’s all about “does this make something click for me”, and it’s possible one of the antiquated videos could do that for someone.
Is it really that hard to describe what is going on? There are four types of downstrokes, and four types of upstrokes, let me name them like this (but a better name is possible):
So USX is fDt + tUf at a minimum. But throw in some tDt for sweeping in one direction. Then perhaps some people throw in some fDf to get free again on a downstroke in certain cases, etc. I’m not sure what the player does after the fDf, as I’ve never seen an explanation.
I’m not saying this notation is best, but one word should define the particular stroke. Statements like “I’m a USX player and doing a downstroke” are fuzzy, as which one of the four downstrokes did they mean? One has to try to infer this from the context, and this has been going on in CtC since the beginning, and it will likely never change, as terms like “downstroke” are intentionally overloaded with meaning that can only be extracted from context.
IMHO the clock-face stuff is quite good, and while some people will get confused about the phase of the clock (due to rotation of their forearm), many people will get it. I’m sure that people can easily learn both USX and DSX if they try (Troy has certainly learned every technique), but most people don’t have that degree of interest, and I think the current trend is towards getting students started ASAP in a pragmatic way, so it’s about quick takeoff for them.
Anyway, I believe that fuzzy notation at the bottom (not being able to enumerate the 8 types of strokes) leads to fuzzy notation everywhere. This also holds for TABs, as well, as they’re fuzzy, too.
Not necessarily - only sweeping if there is some level of pickslant. Same goes for you tUt. You could use zero-degree pickslant and have a motion trapped on both sides.
And of string-hopping. Same for fUf.
I get that you are into super detail, but considering that even Troy and other virtuoso players frequently do things they aren’t even aware of, what is the use of trying notate them? If “player X” thinks they’re playing a looping 3 note per string A B C D E F A B C D E F over and over as, to use your terminology, tDf fUt tDf on the low E string, and then fUt tDf fUf on the A string, and they DO that twice before subconsciously shifting to a displaced pickstroke 50% of attempts… what is the actual technique? The intention, or the reality? If the reality is an error, should you practice that? Where do you draw the line?
Now we’re getting somewhere! What does “sweeping” mean? I would define it as starting and ending trapped, but hitting one string. Is that right? I have no idea. In my mind, sweeping can be done a whole bunch of ways, starting with edge picking with no slant (what I try to do). So, somebody authoratative needs to define what it means, IMHO.
I only recently learned that string-hopping is bad fUf or fDf motions, I had no idea for years. But yes, you’re right.
The whole point of CtC, in my mind, is that there are eight (I think?) types of pick strokes, and everything follows from there. CtC gives names like “USX,” “DSX,” or “DBX” to subsets of these eight strokes. Then, for any one of the eight strokes, one can drill down into further detail and see what’s going on in terms of muscles and joints, if one should be interested. It’s really mix-and-match: You need at least two to start, and then can add more, depending on your needs and taste.
That is totally up to you! My only belief (and it is a strong one) is that you need to be able to express anything that you want to with simple notation. Then, it’s up to your judgement about what you feel is relevant for a particular discussion.
I believe the primer is updated. So it’s all correct and kept up to date. I think it’s advised to follow the primer in the order it is presented. The new RDT wrist motion tutorials are really helping to keep things from getting too complicated.
No, it’s just that the descriptions evolve over time to be easier for non-nerd students to quickly understand.
Most likely wouldn’t describe it as that at all.
Does somebody though? What would it really change, especially what positive change do you envision would occur? This statement is rife with arguments against doing just that, and you have probably unwittingly already made the case of why you likely shouldn’t, especially in regards to the authoritative body part. This whole Plato’s Republic guitar tab thing is beyond me.
To even further this notion it just adds additional information that is often unnecessary to grasp the concept. It becomes noise at that point.
Just like a with a lot of topics, one might find dissonance here. It also assumes quite a lot too.
But that’s the catch, it can stop becoming simple right quick, and that is at the heart of the discussion.
Lemme nerd out with these applicable Bruce Lee quotes…
“The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity. Halfway cultivation runs to ornamentation.”
“Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.”
I love Bruce Lee! That got me to thinking… in boxing, there are two arms, and each arm can throw one of four punches: jab, cross, hook, and uppercut, leaving 8. And with a pick, there is an upstroke and a downstroke, where each one can come in four flavors, leaving 8.
Me, too.
Don’t think - feel.
