Ascending Economy

Playing Technique
#1

Would love to hear from who has gotten really fast and clean with this motion. So far Im pretty comfortable with it, but I want to get it better. I will get a video going soon. Was watching this video:

At around 3:17 Joe Stump says it’s possible he could be doing some hammer ons when fast economy ascending. Was curious about how normal this may be for other players like Yngwie and yourselves. I can descend sweep much easier than ascend. But I cant just reverse the motion for ascending and have it work. Actually the more of a pickslant I have for ascending economy the harder it is to across all strings. Right now, I have to almost have my pick perpendicular to the string and use some wrist motion.

#2

I’m pretty good at it. I pick just like Joe, though I didn’t know it until his interview. I too feel like I am probably hammering some notes, especially when I slow down the video and try to count the picks.
Here is my video, I just picked up my guitar, so the warm up is actually me warming up, but at :18 it clicks and from then on it’s pretty smooth.
Economy picking

#3

I should add that when I was learning to do this, it was half conscious. Meaning, I knew guys like Gambale did it, but Impellitteri said in his instructional, to start every string on a downstroke. In his case, he was playing six notes per string, so of course it would be a downstroke. For me, I was trying to play I am a Viking and Hammer Away, both 3nps ascending. I kept trying over and over and over, until it clicked one day.
I’m naturally a upwards pick slanted, but this motion to my brain, feels the same as sweep picking arpeggios. It just glides when it clicks, which is why I probably have some hammers in there.

#4

I think you and I both have a hammer on with the first string of notes. Sometimes I’ll even start the first string on an upstroke and then go all downward economy for the ascending runs. I think it just sets my arm in a good motion. But you also don’t have as much of a “slant” as yngwie. Your pick looks almost perpendicular which is another similarity to me!

#5

When playing ascending economy, do you ever think to change the slant at all as you go across the strings?

#6

For me, my normal is tilted back towards the low E so much, that it feels like I’m really leaning towards the other way on sweeps ascending; but obviously I’m only getting to even.

#7

I’ve got it down pretty well I think. My pick is not perpendicular to the strings.

#8

Yah your pick has more of a downpard pick slant like yngwie i find that makes it much hard for me for some reason. Im quicker with the pick being slanted in the other direction for ascending economy

#9

Can you post a video of you trying to use a downward slant? Maybe I can help

#10

I didn’t know where to post this, but here goes…Yngwie lesson:

Two arpeggios, then the ascending three note per string pattern – really focusing on the scale going up (2:24 or so).

Is it Down, Hammer, Up on each string or Down, Up, Hammer?

The picking motion coming from the thumb/forefinger is unexpected but looks effortless. I wouldn’t expect it to look like this just from listening.

I’m thinking it’s the first (Down, Hammer, Up) and the thumb/forefinger movement becomes a “feel” thing to actually slow things down (strangely enough) so that he doesn’t have to deal with timing the upstroke to hit the 3rd subdivision of the triplet.

I tried to practice this – no luck yet, really, since the flex at the end is an unfamiliar motion. But the thing I am noticing is that, since the wrist/forearm/elbow is not doing an upstroke whatsoever, once the thumb recoils, the pick is in position for the downstroke on the next string. So the movement, combined with the string tracking of the ascending figure, becomes almost hyper-efficient. This would be why the right hand (the HAND, not the fingers/pick) really looks like it’s just doing a slow-motion sweep. I watched it at slow and standard speeds, and I don’t see any upstroke movement from the wrist or above.

#11

i thought he usually does 3NPS economy/sweeps when ascending so wouldn’t he have to end on down pick?

#12

I tried to cue it up tighter to the 3nps run (2:23-2:24 or :25).

Was I just looking at it wrong? Is it Down Up Down/Down etc. (economy move to next string)?

It looked to me like the thumb flex move is swung later, not earlier in the triplet. But maybe I just wasn’t locked into the right timing with the slowed down video.

And either way, I am curious: Why is it that I see all the upstroke movement coming from the thumb/forefinger? Is that really what’s happening?

It seems like “sweep downward and contract your forefinger at the right time,” like two completely disparate motions. I don’t even think I see any forearm rotation.

“Volcano lick” for comparison:

The “Volcano lick” one is from a different perspective, but even if the thumb is flexing a bit, it doesn’t seem like that’s driving the upstroke. In the new one, his thumb “knuckle” is clearly moving with each 3nps pattern and the “air gap” between the thumb and forefinger is changing.

#13

i’ve been thinking about this too, as I’ve been wondering why the thumb flexion happens mainly during ascending economy in my own playing. My theory about what’s happening is that the thumb flexes not as part of the picking motion, but as a means of changing the angle of the pick: when the thumb flexes, the pick is angled, when the thumb is unflexed, the edge of the pick is straight on to the string.

When i play a 3nps sequence, the thumb moves from flexed to straight on the string change, so when you hit the down stroke on the next string, the pick is at a straight angle

Down (straight), Up (flex), Down (flex -> straight)
Down (straight), (flex), Down (flex -> straight) etc.

Hitting the string change with the pick straight instead of angled slows the velocity of the pick and allows you to play the upstroke more quickly, otherwise you end up sweeping too far and rest stroking on the string above the one you’re trying to play.

#14

Alternating…alternating…then 3nps with the thumb move on the ascending 3’s. It’s like a total gearshift for the ascending phrase.

–

aelazary, I’m working with it – I don’t know how to explain it, but I’m thinking of the thumb move as an “angle change” thing and not an upstroke, or something like that. I’m playing with this very familiar fragment:

------------5
----5-7-8—

So I can get just those four notes picked as a “burst” almost up to legato speed, which is extremely fast. It’s inconsistent now (really just a proof of concept), but it at least gives me a window into how the motion can work. I can’t reset on the A string yet at any kind of speed for the next three going from the A to the D string (meaning 7-8…5, since the 5 on the A already happened) – it was strange enough just to get the thumb move in on the E string. I should probably make the reset earlier, during the string crossing, and hit the A string closer to straight-on, like you’re saying.

The whole thing feels like a “circle” with a pick edge “angling” move in the middle – definitely not like four motions, more like two but with a timing thing that demands synchronization. So I can repeat those four notes at a real warp speed, but it’s “nope, nope, nope, THERE it is…” Not too bad for taking a stab at it, but I still need to hit that A string upstroke.

A pretty generous DWPS actually seems to make it easier to hit it cleanly. And messing with going across multiple strings, I can already feel that the tactile feeling would be more like weaving or slicing than the usual “up/down” alternate plucking feeling.

#15

im hoping one of the experts chimes in here because I really just dont know lol

#16

Not sure I can add anything new to this topic but this is my version anyway. I’ve just started working on this way of playing after having a renewed appreciation of Yngwie.

The biggest problem for me was getting an evenness to the rhythm since there are both alternating strokes and sweeping strokes within a scale run. The solution for me is to really use a lot of edge picking and downward slanting so that the pick glides on the next string during the small sweep string changes. This way I can control the rhythm with the amount of pressure I put on the string.

A good thing to work on for this is the EJ atom, described in the Eric Johnson segment, since that is really what the core element of getting the ascending sweeps to sound good and even. It’s also a good thing to do licks that go between the sweeping motion and pure alternate so that there isn’t a big differens in tone and rhythm. The first lick in the video is a classic Yngwie lick that adresses this.

#17

What is the EJ atom?

#18

The EJ atom is the smallest component that makes sweeping scales possible. It’s basically a downward sweep and an escape upstroke. What notes you chose is up to you, I just chose the ones Troy use in his Eric Johnson segment, but this basic picking pattern unlocks a world of posibillities. If you think about it, this pattern is basically what economy scales consist of, a long string of this motion stacked.

    D  D  U  D  D  U  D  D  U

e|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B|---------8—5-------8—5--------8—5--------------------|
G|----7------------7------------7------------------------------|
D|---------------------------------------------------------------|
A|---------------------------------------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------------------------------------|

1 Like
#19

ohhh right this pattern. Yeah it’s much easier for me to hit the D note on G string with an upstroke so I do a little upwards sweep

#20

Could you post a video and show?