I am new to the community and had a question regarding speed breakdown when going from tremolo to multi note per string lines. I can get my tremolo up to roughly 220-230bpm clean before I feel tension in my arms. I am an elbow picker, trigger grip, slight edge and neutral pick slant with USX. When I try to play scale patterns or anything other than tremolo the fastest I can pick is around 116bpm before everything crashes. Are there any tricks/tips to taming the right hand tremolo so the left hand can synchronize? Or is it as simple as my technique probably changes when I slow down and not playing with my most efficient technique. Thanks for the help!
Sounds like a sync issue. Have you attempted some easy fingerings at high speeds? Things with open notes as well?
1 Like
Yes so I tried playing 4 notes per finger 16notes and was able to do it. I haven’t tried anything other than that. I will try some open string licks. Let me know if you recommend anything.
Maybe take those metronome apps that can change speed 1 bpm at a time but go downward start fast and lower bpm over time and try to maintain the same technique as you slow down. Playing each note to the beat, if I was playing 12 notes per second it would be 720 beats per minute. And let the app ramp down and try get a feel for what your picking hand is doing.
Then just pause in the lower speed zone and keep tremoloing with the same technique so you can get a better sense of motion with your right hand, and let your mind learn the motor skills more consciously aware.
I was able to get someone to hold the phone when doing the picking. Hopefully this helps give an idea of the difference I am speaking about.
The forum won’t let me post the videos. Is there anywhere else to post?
You don’t have to upload videos here, just put them on a YouTube account and place the link on a line by itself. Don’t use the link button, just copy and paste right into your post like this:
[link goes here]
More generally, when you say “crash”, what do you mean? Terms like “crash”, “falls apart”, or even just “can’t” are actually super vague. In general, if you can pick well over 200 beats per minute that’s very, very fast and it means your motion is already working. There should be no reason for the motion to change at a very slow tempo closer to 100. If it’s something other than a problem with the motion, as Pepe suggests, that’s completely something else. The more specific you can be, the better we can help.
The links below are for the tremolo and the alternate picking. After watching it seems like my picking hand tries to do another motion to accommodate the fretting hands lack of speed. Please let me know any advice or lessons I can buy for synchronization or techniques.
Tremolo
Alternate picking
This is my first YouTube upload so hopefully it works. Thanks for everyone’s help.
Your tremolo and alternate picked are indeed two different motions. One (the faster tremolo) is a more ridged forearm/elbow movement, and the other is wrist deviation. Both lean towards a neutral to upward pick slant more common in DSX players have you tried focusing on using the more ridged movement for multi string lines?
I also notice you are using a smallish jazz 3 type pick. With your grip do you feel like a lot of your finger or thumb flesh hits the strings? Is it all comfortable?
I have tried the more rigid on multiple strings and once I get to the next string my fretting hand can’t keep up but the tremolo stays in tact. I am still experimenting with all picks and shapes but I haven’t really noticed my fingers hitting the strings. I do tend to choke up on the pick to get a more firm grip.
Have you tried some synchronized single-string licks using your tremolo form? Like the classic Yngwie 8-5-7-8-7-5 pattern? That might help if you’re having “fingers don’t feel like they can keep up” issues.
If you really feel that you have sync issues with both hands, or a slow fretting hand, no matter what you do with the picking hand you’re not really going to override that. Have you tried doing a single string 6 note left hand legato pattern to test how fast your fretting hand moves. At least this may test your suspicion.
Hi Ralph!
To clarify, when I mentioned being specific, I know it’s not always easy to know what that cause of the trouble is. I just meant, explain what it is you are experiencing that you don’t like: can’t move my hands faster than a certain speed, can’t stop playing wrong notes, etc. Whatever it is you’re trying to fix.
Thanks for filming these. Both of these clips are “alternate picking”. Any picking motion where the pick goes back and forth and hits the string in each direction, that’s alternate picking. The second clip is just much slower and uses a (slightly) different type of joint motion. Are you not able to move your hands faster in the second clip, or are you going very slow on purpose because you’re trying to be accurate and you don’t know how to be accurate at the faster speed?
I assume it’s the second situation. If so, that’s fine. There’s a road map for this. As others have mentioned, the proper sequence here is this:
Find a joint motion that goes fast — done
Make the attack sound good, which is trickier than you think and you’ve done a good job here — done
Try to synchronize the hands while going fast — not yet done!
So that’s where you’re at. You need hand sync and this is done on a single string with chunking. You find simple, short repeating patterns that start on a downstroke and you focus only on the initial downstroke while ignoring the other motions / notes. You try to do this fast and you try to line up that first pickstroke by accenting it a little more than usual.
You want to do this at medium fast or faster speeds to see if you can get the picking to line up with the fretting. If you go too slow, none of the motions will be realistic and it is harder to tell by feel what “synchronized” really feels like.
More than that is somewhat beyond the scope of this forum post, but if you get on the platform at any point, you can check out this lesson on the Yngwie “six-note pattern” which is the repeating pattern I personally used when working on this.
Btw the mechanical stuff in these clips looks good. These motions can work for you, generally speaking, so I wouldn’t worry about that any more at this point. Your goal at this point is hand sync while going at least medium fast.
Nice work so far and good luck!
Thanks for everyone’s help! I just signed up for the platform and will look into the lessons for hand sync patterns I can work on. Seems like getting both hands working at a medium speed is the next step.
Thanks Ralph! I would just start at the beginning of the Primer and watch through it. I think you’ve covered the initial steps but this will help round out your knowledge. Take the table tap tests and write down the values, try to identify which motions you’re using, all the stuff.
After you get through “identifying your motion” section, you can skip to the hand sync lesson above, which is a little later in the Primer. We’re reorganizing things now to bring that section in sooner. So for now I’d just skip to it.
Thanks for signing up!
This has been really helpful. The 6 note per string pattern is amazing how it locks in accuracy and allows the speed to increase naturally. I wish I knew this 16 years ago when I started playing. Is there a specific speed I should achieve before moving on through the rest of the lessons?
A few new short videos I wanted to post. I feel like something is definitely wrong when I switch from one note tremolo to the patterns. The strings still have resistance on them when skipping. Is my pick not slanted enough to accommodate the motion I’m using? On one string it feels very comfortable to do the tremolo but my palm is almost flat on the strings which makes me feel trapped between all of the strings. Sorry if this doesn’t make sense - any advice would be greatly appreciated. If there is any weird noises in the background my daughter was behind the person taking the video.
Hi, I have been following this thread because I am a new subscriber myself. I passed all the tap tests, so to speak and then got the tremolo test. I realized when I am picking slower I am using my wrist back and forth but when I got to the 190 and above my brain switched me to the Vinnie Moore style elbow technique which surprised me! But I can’t play licks or runs with the elbow technique, my brain switches me back to the wrist movement of alternate picking and I can see my hand bouncing all over with string hop! So, that is where I am at. Wristy string hoppy right hand. LEt me know if you find something that helps you out. I could sure use all the help I can get!
I went back and was watching the DSX and USX picking motions. I found that for the DSX wrist motion I have to angle the pick differently to get more edge picking. I play with the guitar on my left leg rather than right. I noticed the arm angle I used with pick angle was actually negating the edge causing me to get trapped. I still can’t play full neck scale or pentatonic for anything but I can manage G and C bluegrass runs plus 2 string 3 NPS patterns almost clean.
I was using the extended trigger grip with DSX and no edge picking. I use the second grip Troy showed in the video now as it allows for more edge picking. The pinched looking grip with the bent thumb. This allows me to play everything more clean.
Hi Ralph, thanks for replying. I did figure out it is easier for me to play with the guitar on my left leg. I am trying to learn the DSX motion using the diagonal pick line…the 2:00 oclock motion that Troy talks about. I will revisit my pick grip. I am trying to mimic Eric Johnson, so I bought his signature jazz3 picks. I think I might have to go to larger ones. I understand the edge pick concept but have to fiddle with my grip and arm angle to get that. Will keep you updated. Feel free to do the same.