Cliffs of Dover hybrid nightmare

[joebegly]

lol I love this! Thanks for including the profanity

To me, your picking fingers looked very closed/curled. I think that could be an issue as the fingers aren’t at their optimum in that posture. Here’s a screengrab from the man himself in the middle of that lick:

See how relaxed and extended his fingers are? Sure, they are not straight but they are are far from curled up.

I did a still from the video I made for you too, and I notice the same sort of thing:

It could have something to do with the concept of the hand at rest. That’s personal too, like it could be different for me than you possibly. You may have a more closed hand than me at rest, but I do think the amount yours is closed looks a little excessive.

I can’t grab a still of @Twangsta or @Philausopher just due to the camera angle (youtube progress bar gets in the way). I noticed they both seem to have a grip that’s a little more closed than what I’m doing, but still look way open as compared to what we’re seeing in your latest video.

[PickingApprentice]

Cheers for the post! Indeed, if I straighten my finger, there is more potential speed for the pluckin’. However, it does make it weird for the picking, but there is a greater chance that I’ll be able to adjust to that…

Your advice, may also be the reason for the below…

@Philausopher

I think mostly play with a floating wrist but for hybrid picking stuff I’ll instinctively plant my palm on the strings and curl my fingers in; kinda looks like more of very slight “upward pickslant” position if that’s still a thing?

[jzohrab]

I had one day, just one, where everything was working perfectly. Hasn’t happened again I’ll post my own progress soon, it’s ok but still not great. Cheers! Z

[jzohrab]

It started working again today so I quickly recorded a video, and added some notes about how I practiced it. I’ve been working on this for some time, exploring different practice methods. Some were useful, others seemed useful as I did them but I don’t feel they materially improved my ability … so this vid contains the ones I think were good.

I still can’t do it consistently, and am not as good as @Philausopher – I don’t know if that day will ever come :’-( – but I’m ok with this rendition. I also think the practice ideas are good, and perhaps might help others hacking at this.

The best run-throughs of the lick happen at about 7:00 mins in.

Cliffs of Dover hybrid picking - practice ideas

Covered in this video:

• practicing hands separate (LHand only, then RH)
• slow practice to release tension, and to observe proprioception
• bursts
• slow-fast-slow-fast practice

My picking hand position notes:

• pinkie is anchored on the guitar face, which helps provide a frame of reference
• wrist is rather straight, as far as I can tell no real wrist flexion or extension

Cheers all! jz

[Philausopher]

Sounds pretty darn good to me man! And on an acoustic to boot.

[jzohrab]

I’m trying to emulate the master. Aka you

[PickingApprentice]

Sounds great man, I’ll go through the vid properly tonight!

[joebegly]

You had some great takes in there! The setup looks very comfortable and relaxed.

[PickingApprentice]

Assuming you meant that for @jzohrab

[joebegly]

Yeah…

But take heart. With the power of positivity I fully believe I’ll be saying exactly the same thing to you in short order

[PickingApprentice]

Lol, I’m afraid that the point of ‘short order’ is well and truly passed for me, but yes… one day…

[jzohrab]

@PickingApprentice: It has taken me a long time to reach it, with some dead ends and time wasted on ineffective practice methods. And it still didn’t click until I finally tweaked the hand position! That was when I finally felt the “oh, THIS is how I need to do.”

I’ll have to try replicating it today, because it’s happened in the past that I had a motion one day and not the next, due to these unconscious adjustments. When you’re not a natural, I find you have to really think about these unconscious things. Pretty effing tedious really

Being hyper aware of accumulated tension is useful. One benefit I find of constantly releasing extraneous tension is that I can keep making small adjustments or even bigger changes, to keep experimenting. If something isn’t working, and I just keep practicing, I’m not really exploring, I think. So the slow practice helps.

It’s a tough balance because there are things like new skill acquisition which feel just wrong for a time, but several short practice sessions over several days gives you time to acclimate. And of course, practicing fast is necessary, to ensure that you have a decent motion. But the slow practice is key too!

Give the ideas in the vid a shot and see if they work for you.

Cheers, z

Update: I tried it again today, and still works. Phew! I notice again that tension is a key thing … when I first started it today I had tension in my picking arm triceps, and weirdly in both arms near the wrist some sort of tension in one arm is getting “mirrored” by the other arm). I believe the triceps tension was my body somehow trying to control the arm, but I also have the pinkie anchored on the guitar face and so was able to consciously adjust that tension during slow play and fast play, which was good. Then I worked on bursts up to 150 bpm, which I can just barely make. So I’d play eights and then bursts of sixteenths:

and then start that same rhythm on the next note. Best wishes! z

[PickingApprentice]

Its reassuring that most of what is in you video, I am currently doing, so I’ll keep at it.

One concept that I wasn’t sure about was when you say “Pay attention to what is going on internally”, could you expand on that?

[jzohrab]

Sure. The body uses something called “proprioception” to keep track of itself as it moves — limb positions, and I believe also relative limb speed etc. It’s an important part of motor skill acquisition, according to researchers, as it is how the body watches itself.

When I’m playing slowly, I’m finding and releasing tension, and I’m also paying close attention to relative limb positions and sensations, not visually, just internal sensations. I don’t get overwhelmed, just noticing things like weight, engagement, motions, how little effort I need to accomplish something, etc. Overall physical feel. Also noting the tone I’m getting from guitar. It’s a relaxed interested survey of the whole machine.

My theory is that by tuning in on that info consciously, I’m going to become more aware subconsciously during fast practice, and help my brain and nervous system sort out what’s happening. But this theory could be nonsense, so another way to look at it is as a thorough scan for reducing effort, which is also important as playing guitar requires good coordination of excitatory and inhibitory nervous system processes — I wrote more about that here

Cheers! Z

[PickingApprentice]

@jzohrab

I don’t get overwhelmed, just noticing things like weight, engagement, motions, how little effort I need to accomplish something, etc.

Cool, thanks for the explanation, it sounds very much like “The inner Game of Music” that I read a long time ago, where you practice sonething along the lines of ‘non-judgemental awareness’ - acknowledging something that isn’t quite right and allowing your body to make the necessary adjustments…

[jzohrab]

Right, I read that too a while back! Yes, very much. Mental relaxation = physical relaxation, which leads to better experimentation and awareness. I’m not a pro at most things, but I’m a pro at beating the shit out of myself. While self-flagellation feels good in a sick way, it’s not useful. You can also take a Zen angle: attachment leads to suffering. Cheers!

[PickingApprentice]

Okay, coming up to a year of practicing this (i’m not even joking, I’m ashamed to say). I have been working from home pretty solidly this year and have practiced this most days of the week - a few times a day mixing up the various advice in the thread.

Whilst I have made progress, this horse feel thoroughly flogged and I’m starting to wonder whether its worth it haha! This is it at its best… I can’t access that last 20% of speed and fluidity

EJ hybrid - 1 year (progress?)

Anyone got any thoughts on what they are seeing?

I have focused a lot on attempting to relax as much as possible and also hand positioning experimentation which has helped.

Positive mindset has also helped, but I can’t stop the nagging feeling of “maybe my body simply cannot do it and I should just accept that and move on”.

[Scottulus]

Hey man! Awesome playing! I hybrid pick too!

Here’s the thing though, I don’t move “just” the finger, it’s more like the finger is placed in between or under the string, ready to go and my regular picking motion picks the picked note, and it’s THAT motion that pulls my finger across the string, and as I go back to doing the picked note that finger goes back to it’s spot so that I can do it all over again. So while the finger does reach a little bit, it’s really my wrist motion that causes the hybrid pick…

I play that particular bit with an upstroke, then middle finger pluck.

I hope that helps?

[Twangsta]

You got it down bro.

I’ve had some success with hybrid myself, but I notice something odd the other day. Often with playing malmsteen style licks I’d hear a bit of noise now and then, finally realised it’s the habit of keeping the middle finger close to the index at almost all times, I also use the index to reinforce the index finger, on my picking hand. Well that was causing unwanted contact with the strings now and then, just thought I’d share as it’s something to watch out for you. It’s worth the trouble I feel, hybrid picking is a great tool.

[PickingApprentice]

thanks for the feedback peeps!

@Scottulus

don’t move “just” the finger, it’s more like the finger is placed in between or under the string, ready to go and my regular picking motion picks the picked note, and it’s THAT motion that pulls my finger across the string,

That is very much the elusive part for me. I know I have done it before a few times, but its hard to capture that feeling and bottle it. The increasing gap between the index and middle finger between different string sets interferes with the whole motion too.

Looking at my video again, it looks relatively smooth and relaxed, but physically its more of a clunky battle

@Twangsta

also use the index to reinforce the index finger, on my picking hand. Well that was causing unwanted contact with the strings now and then, just thought I’d share as it’s something to watch out for you.

Good shout, I’ll keep an eye/ear out!