Cross picking question

[Bluedude2000]

I recently decided to get into crosspicking earlier last week. I have been focusing on DWPS and UWPS for the past few months, and wanted to mix it up.

I was always freaked out by cross picking, as I never understood it and everyone said it was very hard. After reading tons of posts, and watching a few in depth interviews (Carl Miner,Albert Lee), I think I’m starting to understand it. Please tell me if this is correct. I seem to be able to do the move between 2 strings at 16ths at 120-130 BPM with no problem for 4-6 bars no problem. I’m wondering if this is too good to be true, or perhaps it’s coming more naturally to me than I thought.

This is all with a DWPS type slant:
The downstroke on the B string (extension move, no wrist deviation)- so the pick does a straight line away kind of move.
Upstroke on the E string (wrist deviation)- the pick moves in the classic diagonal type line we usually see to escape the string like you would normally see with classic DWPS.

On a side note, I’ve read that no forearm should be involved. But I suppose there might be a minimal amount of it on the upstroke (5-10 %), but maybe I’m mistaking that for wrist deviation…

Does this all sound correct? If so, maybe it’s easier than I thought.

[Troy]

I was always freaked out by cross picking, as I never understood it and everyone said it was very hard.

Crosspicking just means making a curved motion on every pickstroke. Same curved motions you might already use for things like two-way pickslanting, just doing it all the time. To me, by definition, any 1nps line is automatically crosspicking since the only way to do that is fully escaped pickstrokes on every note.

The downstroke on the B string (extension move, no wrist deviation)- so the pick does a straight line away kind of move.
Upstroke on the E string (wrist deviation)- the pick moves in the classic diagonal type line we usually see to escape the string like you would normally see with classic DWPS.

Essentially yes. But the downstroke isn’t “no deviation”, it depends on your forearm position. If your arm is only very lightly supinated, then both the upstroke and downstroke are almost entirely deviation. The difference is the downstroke includes a small amount of wrist extension so the movement becomes the opposite diagonal from the upstroke. If you were to make a pure wrist extension downstroke, the [edit] downstroke when it hits the string would then veer away from its deviation path of travel at 90 degrees and that would be super inefficient and not fast.

On a side note, I’ve read that no forearm should be involved. But I suppose there might be a minimal amount of it on the upstroke (5-10 %), but maybe I’m mistaking that for wrist deviation…

Forearm is fine. Wrist is fine. Any blend of the above is also fine provided you can do it smoothly and quickly. All that matters is that you create a curved pickstroke. What we’re describing with these different types of movements are just that - different types of movements. I’ve posted examples of blended movements that use both forearm and wrist, as well as examples that use (mostly) wrist. Out there in the real world, every possible movement type you can think of is being used by great players. The common thread is that no matter the movement choice, players that developed this playing style, like Steve, Carl, Martin, Molly, etc. seem to make the curved pickstroke a kind of default movement that they make all the time.

[Bluedude2000]

Thank you @Troy !

Everything you said makes total sense to me. The one thing I don’t get still is the curved movement. Forgive me if I’ve missed some key info here on this forum or in a video. Is this perhaps the connecting movement between hitting the strings?

I ask this because if I’m thinking w/ DWPS and a supinated feel, this is how I understand it. The downpick on the B string using extension and touch of deviation. This creates a straight line away from the string itself. Maybe at a touch of an angle coming away from the string.

The E string when hit is at a diagonal straight line using only wrist deviation, which is the the opposite movement of what would be hitting a rest stroke on the string physically below (in this case there’s no string below because it’s the high E).

To put it into keyboard symbols w/ using DWPS and supination
B string: picked away using extension (this line might be tilted a little at an angle down to the right) : _____
E string: uses this movement with deviation: \

So the pattern looks like this going back and forth: (E,B,E,B, E, B etc) = __ \ __ \ __ \ __\

I am wondering if the only way to connect these 2 lines are with the curved motion you’re describing?.. Maybe I’m not seeing it? Haha

[tomatitito]

Hey @Bluedude2000,

I’m not Troy, but let me try to help you anyway. I have the feeling that you are still a bit confused about wrist deviation vs wrist flexion/extension. No offense here, these things are tricky! It might be a good idea to watch the video on the four fundamental movements:

https://troygrady.com/channels/tutorials/guitar-anatomy-the-four-fundamental-movements/

I’m thinking w/ DWPS and a supinated feel, this is how I understand it. The downpick on the B string using extension and touch of deviation.

What you are describing here is a crosspicking motion, not a pickslanting motion. And I would say that movement would “mainly” be a deviational one, with a touch of extension, not the other way around.

The one thing I don’t get still is the curved movement.

The reason this is crosspicking and not pickslanting is that you combine the two wrist movements (deviation and extension in this case). That’s what makes the movement curved.

If you were to only use deviation, your pick would move in a straigth line, basically “back and forth”, or maybe better “towards the ground” and “away from the ground”. Depending on your forearm position (supinated vs. pronated) this would result in a reststroke on either the downstroke (supinated) or the upstroke (pronated).

To get from pickslanting to crosspicking, you have to get rid of this reststroke and somehow escape the strings on both the up- and downstrokes. This requires a bit of extension. (Remember that flexion/extension is the “doorknocker” movement. Flexion moves your pick into the strings, extension moves it out of the strings.) With supinated forearm you need extension on the downstroke, with pronaton you need it on the upstroke.

Hope this helps!

[Troy]

I am wondering if the only way to connect these 2 lines are with the curved motion you’re describing?.. Maybe I’m not seeing it? Haha

Correct. Your hand can’t make an instantaneous motion path change in space, it would be jarring and inefficient. There’s always overlap which is why it looks curved. More details here:

Everything you need to know about crosspicking

Sorry, just to clarify further, there’s never really a point where the movement is “only” one thing or another above or below the string. There’s always overlap of some kind, otherwise the hand would need to make an instant directional change and that’s really not possible. The amount and nature of the overlap is reflected by the arm position. In a parallel setup, you can do a pure deviation movement over the whole range of motion. And in a 90-degree setup - either supinated or pronated - y…

[hamsterman]

I seem to be able to do the move between 2 strings at 16ths at 120-130 BPM with no problem for 4-6 bars no problem. I’m wondering if this is too good to be true, or perhaps it’s coming more naturally to me than I thought.

One thing I’ve found is that almost everyone has a preference for either outside or inside 2 string alternation. After only about a month of practicing X-picking… I could do 2 string alternation pretty fast… BUT… only if it was inside picking. My outside string alternating was sloppy and slow… and practicing didnt seem to help.

I am just now finally feeling comfortable with outside 2 string alternation and string skipping alternation. And now, I am noticing everything else is really opening up. It’s one of those things that you can’t ignore… because it’ll come back and haunt you later.

On a side note, I’ve read that no forearm should be involved. But I suppose there might be a minimal amount of it on the upstroke (5-10 %), but maybe I’m mistaking that for wrist deviation…

Absolutely not true. There is NO mechanic that should be NOT used. I hate when I hear things like this. I think all mechanics should be tried, and you will ultimately find the combination that feels best for you. As a general guideline, I would say you need at least 2 mechanics working together… the one’s you choose are up to you). Personally, I use everything.

One thing I’ve found in my own progress is its easiest if you start with focusing on just creating the double-escape. And then when you have that down… start working on moving it around. It make things a bit easier that way.

[DJ_Ddawg]

The only thing I wonder is how do people who use Elbow create a curved pickstroke? When players generally use Elbow they are most likely UWPS and then swipe certain string changes. How do these players do 2WPS with Elbow as their primary motion mechanic?

Is crosspicking possible with Elbow Movement?- it seems to me that because of the compound movement required it is easier to do with the various Wrist motions- Deviation, Flexion/Extension, Rotation

[hamsterman]

The only thing I wonder is how do people who use Elbow create a curved pickstroke? When players generally use Elbow they are most likely UWPS and then swipe certain string changes. How do these players do 2WPS with Elbow as their primary motion mechanic?

Is crosspicking possible with Elbow Movement?- it seems to me that because of the compound movement required it is easier to do with the various Wrist motions- Deviation, Flexion/Extension, Rotation

I guess its certainly possible to use the elbow as part of the movement, but I think it would be pretty tough. I suppose you could use it as part of your downward motion.

But just to complicate things a bit… once you develop a nice curved stroke, you still have to see if that stroke keeps its form, and works on all 4 types of string movements. (ie,
asc outside. desc outside, asc inside, desc inside.

So basically, you have to learn the subtleties of when to use your tracking muscles, and if your using the elbow, when to relax it, to ensure the tenseness doesnt interrupt your finesse pick-stroke.

That takes a while, and involves lots of trial and error. For some strange reason… I am now doing a slight circular movement with my fingers-thumbs now. I don’t know why, but it helped me put it all together.

[Troy]

Is crosspicking possible with Elbow Movement?

Doc Watson’s technique had an elbow component and he is the OG alternate picking crosspicker. His own (posthumous) web site actually even mentions this:

http://www.docsguitar.com/guitar.html

You’re probably correct that there was some other movement in there - likely wrist, in addition to elbow.

it seems to me that because of the compound movement required it is easier to do with the various Wrist motions- Deviation, Flexion/Extension, Rotation

I try to stay away from terms like “easy” and “hard”, especially when we’re dealing with physical movements we don’t know how to do. Movements like Doc’s, and Carl Miner’s, who also uses some elbow, look super relaxed and pretty “easy” to me. I may not always know how they work. But that’s a different problem entirely!