Downstroke vs Upstroke escape wrist motions - Help!

Technique Critique
#1

Hi all!

I have the opportunity to record myself testing wrist motions. Downstroke vs Upstroke escape wrist motions.

The firs part of the video is the Downstroke escape version. I need to continue working on it but it feels quite relaxed and somewhat in control. The movements are quite bit but I recall Troy talking about micro managing the move and the example from Eric Johnson that even when playing fast the pick was way up in the air during the transitions, but I will try to reduce the size of the motions over time. Also I have notice I need the picking hand thumb in contact with the string to execute the movement correctly.

The second part is the upstroke escape motion. However it does not feel right causing me to tense too much. I am not sure if I am doing it correctly. I am attempting wrist motion. I have noticed since my picking hand thumb is not contact with the strings, lacking this reference point causes me issues. I have practiced this for long time with no major improvements or results. Here I am playing a the very edge of my technique, if I try to speed up I will tense so much that I will not be able to keep up with the tempo. Any feedback or advise would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

#2

Great playing! The DSX stuff is awesome.

To me, from about 2:05 onward it looks like the motion is still DSX though (or mixed escape, or possibly the dreaded string hopping, though I’m not positive). The down strokes don’t seem to be going toward the body. This may be causing some over compensating while you’re trying to get the upstrokes to escape.

Have you watched the Doug Aldrich video? That setup looks close to your hand position so it may help you tweak that actual ‘motion’ to get the USX you’re after.

Another approach would be more of a Gypsy form, or you could try more of a ‘rotational’ movement. But you’d lose palm muting. Still, might be worthwhile to try out different ‘motions’. Since you’re so good at DSX, it’s like that wants to take over when you’re going for USX. Since it’s a wrist based approach you’re using in both attempts, a totally different mechanic might help give some perspective.

Or, as others would probably recommend, just exploit what you’re great at :slight_smile: Your DSX is killer!

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#3

My first inclination would be to suggest a little bit of finger movement to assist, based on my personal experience. I feel like when I do DSX I don’t have to involve fingers at all (conducive for me to use wrist and elbow), whereas USX requires me to use wrist and fingers.

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#4

I think this is a good suggestion too. It’s ‘different’ than what you’re doing @DGG. When good players spend a lot of time on something and don’t feel progress, I think that’s an indication you just need to try something else :slight_smile:

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#5

Thanks! I have not watched it, will do over the week. I used to be somewhat good doing the USX with forearm rotation. However the reason I am pursuing the wrist motion is being able to execute double escape wrist motions so switching between DSX and USX wrist motions is required.

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#6

Thanks! Finger movement as in to assist the string change, like flexing and extending at the thumb joint?

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#7

I see, and that makes sense. A wrist that can do ‘anything’ is tempting! At that point you’re basically Andy Wood :slight_smile:

Good chapters on what you’re after would probably be:

Is there a lot of material you’re interested in playing that’s strictly DBX? Just wondering since it could be a tough tree to bark up if you only need it occasionally. If it is just occasional, @Pepepicks66’s suggestion makes sense because you could use some finger motion to get what you’re needing for occasional USX in an otherwise DSX context. I won’t speak for him but I’m pretty he did mean what you’d asked about - flex/ext thumb joint a la Yngwie, but only at the points it’s needed, as a ‘helper’ motion.

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#8

Well, the moment I started practicing I realized DBX is not the main reason. Main reason is rhythm playing. I used to be so USX biased that playing rhythm sections like the main from Bark at the Moon was impossible currently it is still quite challenging. DSX does not work well there as it is required to play the open notes muted followed by the chord. Regarding DBX for rhythm I would like to play licks like the two examples in here from youtube from a band called Angra. They are about in the middle of the post.

https://forum.troygrady.com/t/help-to-improve-twps/29189/8

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#9

Your dsx playing looks like it’s coming a lot easier for you! When you tremolo pick on one string with this motion, is it feeling relatively easy at say 150 or 160bpm 16s?
You don’t need to be develop both, well, not exactly, to the same level. In the primer, you see most have a primary motion and then a secondary motion for the string changes that don’t match primary escape.

I’d suggest going with the one that is coming easy to you. Then you can add in some odd number of notes per string phrases and develop your secondary. Whatever that turns out to be

Sometimes we can’t choose our primary. I spent way too long on wrist DSX, even though I was much faster and more relaxed with forearm and wrist usx.
Even with forearm and wrist usx, you can change strings after downstrokes descending (can sweep down ascending) with a secondary motion, which is just a quick forearm and wrist motorcycle revving motion haha.

To summarize my waffle, develop the one that you can play fast, even just on one string, now, and have a look at the primary and secondary motion section if you haven’t already.

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#10

Thanks! Well, yes at some point I was trying to push around 180 bpm 16th notes with purely DSX licks, but I have not been able to develop a consistent secondary motion with DSX as primary and thus why I decided to try to develop a more reliable and consistent USX wrist based. And then try to combine both in DBX wrist motions.

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#11

I recorded my current status with DBX. I can see some string hoping in there specially in the supposed USX moments. Also some swipes and double picks (not escaping then string so then it rings).

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#12

DSX for president :sweat_smile:

There are a lot of ways you could implement a helper motion for upstrokes. Of course, there are so many things suited better for USX, especially the Bark at the moon riff, it’s on my bucketlist as a player with DSX primary motion.

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#13

This motion is sounding really good!
If an accidental swipe falls in the forest… :wink:

Can you try it at a higher tempo? High enough so that you can’t string hop and maybe try short bursts? See if that helps the motion become less string hoppy… but to be honest, this motion is looking and sounding good to me.

Keep in mind many players dbx motions become a little more vertical when the tempo is slowed down a little. It can be hard to know where the line between a gentle curve and a slightly pointier curve is :joy:

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#14

Thanks! Well, this is the very edge of my technique mainly because if I try to speed up more tension will stop me from keeping up the tempo. Thus why I think I need to optimize the movements or somewhere in there there is perhaps a mismatch between hand positioning and the actual wrist movement.

I have been watching again some of the primer videos. I think I would need to rework also my DSX so is somewhat more neutral. I think it is still slightly supinated arm position but I need to have positive contact with my picking thumb on the upstroke (this is so to speak my rest stroke on the DSX).

@Troy I was watching the Chapter 4 - Identifying Gilbert Mixed Escape Wrist Motion from the primer. When you do the DSX motions (Di Meola motion) does your picking thumb makes contact with the lower string during the upstroke?

#15

Went back to the primer to review the USX and DSX wrist motions positions / checklist and did the start with speed test for both motions. The DSX is almost no escaping as I am trying to avoid pronating too much so the thumb starts touching the lower strings. This DSX motions feels different than my normal DSX from the initial post on this thread. Thanks for any feedback.

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#16

It looks like you have become a lot more smooth with the wrist usx motion. Good job!
The dsx motion is cutting it very close, but it looks like the Al/Andy Wood motion.
They look to be the same setup, same arm position, same anchor points etc, just the wrist moving in a different direction for usx and dsx?
Are you able to play the 2nps dsx lines you did in the first video with this new dsx motion? Or shorter fragments of it, just to be sure it’s escaping and not trapped.

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#17

Recorded playing same initial lick both ways at a very moderate speed - 90 bpm. As syncing both hands is challenging when trying just the raw tremolo speed motions.

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#18

The motions are looking good as far as I can see!, the real test will be the speed. Even just short bursts of speed with one string change might help you feel if the motions are the same as your faster tremolo speed.
When I was trying to test dsx wrist motion, I just played a three note chromatic on a pair of strings, just to see if I was able to do it fast and escape.
Might be helpful to try a four note chromatic on a pair of strings to test the usx motion, seen as that was the one that originally looked like their might have been some string hopping

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#19

Thanks! Recorded very basic string changes as not yet able to proper sync both hands.

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#20

Nice one! It looks like your usx has improved a lot from what I can see! Looks like it’s effortless now, is it feeling easier to do?
Dsx is still looking great. Does it feel different to your original dsx?

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