Downward Pickslanting Troubles and the Teemu interview

If you’re sitting in a chair, and you place your hand on your lap with the fingers out, that’s pretty much exactly what my setup feels like - zero tension, and with the soft parts of the bridge-side of the picking hand contacting the strings. For a good real-world example of what this looks like, take a look at the following Talking the Code we did on swiping:

Picking up the guitar and orienting as you see in this clip should be comfortable first and foremost: forearm on the body, hand resting on the bridge, fingers out and loose, no tension anywhere in the structure. The arm is supporting its weight at the forearm / body contact point, so everything below that is pretty loose.

Note also that the forearm is not pressed up against the guitar body and hugging it the way a lot of upward pickslanters do, or the way Andy Wood tends to, for example. Instead, there’s a small amount of wrist flexion, so the forearm / wrist arrangement is curved, and forms a shallow bridge over the guitar’s body. When I’m playing with dwps, you could stick an iphone between my forearm and the guitar in the gap that’s there.

Can you do this, is it uncomfortable, and if so what about is uncomfortable?

Second, the pick grip I’m using is what I’ve termed ‘angle pad’ in our pick grip poll:

There’s room for variation here in terms of different grips, and they can all be made to work. But in the interest of replicating my setup entirely as an experiment, you can give this a shot and see how it affects your geometry. One of the most insightful things Teemu talks about in his interview is how pick grip affects the geometry by causing the pick to slant, allowing you to reach the strings more easily when you’ve got this lightly flexed forearm arc happening.

Try not to worry too much about moving the setup, or doing “forearm rotation” in any kind of explicit way. Just see if you can get these parts arranged like this in a way that feels comfortable.

9 Likes

What’s funny is I was complaining above about the volume knob being in the way when DWPS. And look where Teemu moved his volume knob on his two new guitars. LOL!


I’ll check out the info you gave in this post, Troy.
Goodnight everybody

Just tried this, and though my hand LOOKED pretty much exactly like it did before when actually playing, it really helped my DWPS feel more comfortable.

Almost as big a difference in hand relaxation as when I changed from… do you call it “pad-side”? To what you call “angle pad”

I love how a subtle cue can sometimes make a big difference.

1 Like

Not yet, but duly noted. :wink:

2 Likes

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. I suppose my first statement wasn’t totally accurate–the hand/arm positioning for DWPS itself is very relaxed and comfortable. It’s the most natural way I could use my arm to play guitar. When I air guitar, it’s the position that I assume. However when it comes to the actual picking motion, I can’t seem to achieve DWPS with any degree of speed or accuracy. Downstrokes are OK (on the thicker strings for riffing) but upstrokes and alternate-picking doesn’t seem to fly. It’s really frustrating, and it’s not like I haven’t spent time working on it either.

I think I use UWPS because it let’s my arm hug the body of the guitar and anchor myself in a way where I feel like I have more control of the instrument. If I let my arm hang more loose when I try to play then I feel naked and completely out of control. This is probably a mental thing, I suppose.

1 Like

When I do DWPS, I don’t have as much of a “hug” compared to UWPS, but my forearm about 2 or 3 inches from the elbow is anchored very firmly against the edge of the guitar, and then there’s another “anchor point” near the picking hand (a finger against the guitar face or part of the palm or edge of the hand against the bridge, depending on what technique I’m working with). Usually the result is something that looks Yngwie-ish, with the ring finger and/or middle finger against the pickguard area. Some lengths of letting the guitar hang low on the strap might not be conducive to this.

2 Likes

WOW, so Batio and Gilbert have always swiped when needed to stay alternate picking?

If I stay DWPS, I either have to pick economy, or swipe every once in awhile if strictly alternate.

I was always under the impression Gilbert and Batio somehow got over the strings with rocking or something…

The reason I economy pick is because I always avoided swiping, thinking it was a bad habit.

1 Like

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/swiping/

Oh, ok! I got ya. So you constantly swivel between UWPS and DWPS when alt picking… The swipes just happen sometimes lightly?

Or not so lightly! I tend to swipe on ascending outside string changes, which means a downstroke going to a higher string will hit that higher string on the way over. And it’s mainly on the lower and middle strings, not on the higher ones. This is simply a result of my hand position, and muting tendencies. So for example on descending scale playing you won’t see it, because that ascending downstroke string change simply doesn’t occur.

If you watch the Teemu interview, you’ll see similar tendencies - you can see the swipes happening, but mostly not hear them. He and I have very similar techniques and sounds when it comes to scale playing.

1 Like

LOL, ok, I’m going to pay attention to hidden swipes. I know exactly what you were talking about in the intense Rock 2 video. You can hear that swiped note because Paul had a real Spanky clean sound. He had the volume rolled way off.

Hey there!
I think a lot of the problems with switching the hand setup have to do with string tracking. It seems that UWPS and DWPS each favor different tactile reference points on the instrument, and switching between them can feel very weird. At least it did for me.
I have always been an upward pickslanter when it came to fast alternate picking. I never knew exactly why but now I guess it had to do with my strategy for string tracking. While playing on the higher strings I used the palm of my right hand to keep the lower strings from ringing. The feeling of the the palm resting on the lower strings - or even the guitar body when playing the low strings - became my reference point for string tracking. Also the wrist would be very close to the instrument body or even touching it, adding to the “anchored” feeling of this setup.
When experimenting with DWPS after watching Troy’s videos I found I had to give up all these reference points, and boy did that feel strange! Playing accurate single-note lines with on “open wrist” was completely weird for me. I had used the open wrist position for strumming but it didn’t require the precision needed for single-note playing. To get more stability I started letting my right ring and pinky fingers slightly touch the top of the guitar and even let them curl under the top strings when playing on the low strings. This became my new reference point for string tracking and by now DWPS feels almost as natural as UWPS, and it’s great having it in my toolbox.
So switching from UWPS to DWPS is not merely about changing pick angles but about shifting your whole center of gravity, along with the tactile reference points on the instrument that are needed for precise playing. You need to abandon old habits, which are probably very deeply ingrained in your muscle memory, in favor of new ones. This is a challenge but it can be mastered and the results are very rewarding.

8 Likes

What I find fascinating about your picture is you are definintely DWPS, yet your wrist is not turned upward. In order for me to get the same position, I feel like I have to turn wrist “upward” to get that same position. I’m envious!

1 Like

String tracking is a 'UUUGE issue for me when trying to bust my DWPS chops, you are totally correct on this and your explanation of UWPS mirrors my technique.

I’ve been experimenting with the aforementioned “Rest Stroke” strategy and I think I might have found a good practice method for getting with DWPS thing happening. Switching the center of gravity is a big issue for me but fingers crossed I’ll be able to get it happening.

1 Like

care up to upload a video for us who haven’t got it yet. :grin:

so after watching Teemu’s interview about half way through I have decided that I am abandoning my current
method of holding the pick with 3 fingers (thumb, index and middle) and going with the standard thumb and
index finger way. This came to me after he said something to the effect of “3 finger pick holding creates a more parallel position to the strings or a flat position” which is opposite of what you want in DWPS.

It’s been very strange (how do you guys play like this?) but I’m going to press on and see how it goes. wish me luck.

1 Like

lol, thanks! If I finger anchor like the one picture, I usually economy circle pick. Forearm anchor and use palm for tracking and muting when I close hand. That’s usually economy picking also. All DWPS. I’m starting to 2 way pick slant when I’m alternate picking… that’s from the closed hand also. I guess my DWPS happens in the fingers and not from free floating the wrist. Well anyways, I guess try a bunch of ways till something works. Troy’s pick posture advise seems to be the best I’ve seen. He explains it on this thread.

I’m a economy picker… I’m trying to get better at alternate picking. It’s the old dog new tricks a little. You guys are whipper snappers. LOL . Here is me jamming a little earlier today:

Have a good weekend everyone!!!
-Hank

3 Likes

Yes, I forgot to mention rest strokes. They are yet another string tracking device. Good luck on becoming a DWPS master!

Would you be willing to upload a video explaining/demonstrating what you mean when you say “circle picking”? I’ve heard a number of people use this term over the years, and I’m not convinced that they all mean the same thing.

2 Likes

I saw the short snippet on YouTube. Man, that Teemu video was incredible.

Also would love to know how he gets thats smooth tone.

Ok, small first impression update for some of the strategies outlined by my fellow Coders.

I rewatched the Teemu interview and probably spent 3 hours working some DWSP chops, focusing on the position of my arm, the rotational movement and my pick grip. I decided to go with a strong gypsy style grip with a pronounced forearm motion (may as well dive in and do something totally different) similar to Teemu’s tremolo-picking stance. I resisted the urge to anchor anywhere beside my forearm resting, though I noticed my pinking gripping the bottom of my bridge pickups once in a while. I learned quite a bit about the issues I was having…

A) Relaxing. I notice that I sometimes tense up when changing strings. Sometimes I tense up even when changing notes on the same string which totally disrupts the flow of my movements.

B) Consistency. I really struggle to repeat the same small motion over an over again. I feel like I’m unable to to do exact same thing twice in a row, much less 8 or 16 or 32 times in a row. This is something that I struggle with in most facets of my life, not just guitar technique. My handwriting is really hit/miss, for example.

C) Pick Grip. This probably falls under point A but it’s such a key thing that I feel the need to single it out. I tend to have a pretty firm grip on my pick, which makes it pretty difficult for the pick to pass through the string. There’s a “sweet spot” in terms of grip tensions that gives the pick a bit of flex from your fingers and allows it to pass through the string much easier.

So, here are the strategies I’ve found to try and work around these issues.

A) Thinner Picks. This is probably seems like a weird approach, but some of the best guitarists in my local scene are using rather thin picks. I tried using Dunlop 0.60 today during a morning warm-up and found that it was much easier to get the pick through the strings. It’s not totaly fool-proof–I still can’t get away with a death-grip on the pick. But it helps mitigate some of the resistance I’m working against

B) Rest-Strokes. This is probably the biggest light-bulb moment I’ve had with the DWPS struggles. By focusing even pick stroke into a rest stroke, it forces my motions to become stronger, more deliberate, and more consistent by virtue of those things. It actually helps with the “anchoring” issue I mentioned earlier–the rest stroke gives my pick a more solid target to shoot for. As an added bonus, I think my tone is stronger and better due to the increased force of my pick strokes. Cool.

C) Chunking. This one is obvious and not a new revelation for me, but 4-note chunking will be what saves my ass in the focus and consistency department.

I’m basically trying to re-program my DNA by working on this stuff. It’s emotionally exhausting for me but I kinda like it.

3 Likes

I might understand what you are talking about. As I have been trying this DWPS technique I noticed that my picking hand will literally go in tiny circles as I hit the strings. It seems to work out better for me. One day I’ll upload a video if I find the time.

2 Likes