Ive got a really solid alternate picking motion down at this point (finally) wrist motion. But now I am starting to work on Yngwies Trilogy Suite, and really struggling with that economy picked intro part with the chord stabs. I cant seem to get smooth economy picking down. Can someone give me some basic tips- Obviously a DWPS, but what about edge picking, how much edge picking, do I want the movement to be more or less pressure on the strings? Im struggling to find a good pace to get the motion down, when I go slow it doesnt feel like the correct motion and fastā¦ well it feels better but seems like either my pick or fingers are not keeping up. Thank you!
here is the analysis that i feel economy picking kinda originated or developed. i think it comes from the lean in flamenco picado(donāt take me to literal here by this i mean whenever that rest/lean came about which couldāve been since the beginning of music or when the lyre was created), but instead of doing the skip step during a string change when musically descending they decided since the finger is already there to just sweep through the string(3 finger economy picado). so in this thinking i feel that most economy picking should lean(rest stroke gypsy jazz technique practice can help here immensely for these style of runs). it is like a different flow than something that is alternate picked. itās the tempo disruption of the swept downstroke hitting two strings that requires some practice as this isnāt the same flow as when you alternate pick. it falls more inline with how a rhythm guitar player strums. it is like strumming through 2 strings, except using that rest to help develop giving the notes during the sweep (2 string chord strum) separation.
1 Like
What you are trying to achieve is this, yes? Not the notes, but the 3nps concept, right?
Picking is DUDrepeat
--------------------------------------------------------------5ā6ā8--------
--------------------------------------------------5ā6ā8--------------------
--------------------------------------5ā6ā8--------------------------------
--------------------------5ā6ā8-------------------------------------------
--------------5ā6ā8-------------------------------------------------------
ā5ā6ā8------------------------------------------------------------------
I did this a lot, I think that I sort of stumbled onto it trying to learn a lead fill in āIām The Oneā by the great Van Halen years ago not realizing at the time that one has a lot of hammer-ons in it.
Try practicing this (2 notes picked separately, then strum the stringchange as a diad)
D U D
---------5------------
ā5ā6ā8-----------
Work this out across your strings and then once you are comfortable with it practice removing the LH note as fast as you are strumming it. The RH pickstroke wonāt change, a sweep IS a strum - but the LH articulation changes everything. This will take on a definite triplet feel. Yngwie Malmsteen, Grank Gambale, Brett Garsed Rick Graham all do stuff like this.
Itās more of a thing where you time the LH articulation to coincide with the string change; It doesnāt take long to learn it once you have the right mindset. Oh yeah, that āstringchange downstrokeā will be the one you will end up accenting, so when you get this pretty quick it will feel like a pretty light strum.
I sure hope this helps somewhat - good luck!
You know if you also feel that if the ascending or descending is easier than you probably have a more one way escape motion. The other way will feel a bit awkward at first, and might require a helper motion, maybe setup form adjustment, that will have to be developed. Of course we are talking Yngwie here so there most likely wouldnāt be musically descended economy picking, although I do think there are rare instances were he does do double ups in his older age (I could be wrong here, but my brain is telling me in one of these more recent videos I spotted it). But if you wanted to develop both, it is possible to do it. Although when I probed Cesario Filho on it, he says he tries to keep it to strictly the 3nps scalar (scalular, LOL i dont even think this is a word) runs/arpeggio phrasing.
You could try this adding a note during each loop concept with breaks between fast fragments. I will give you a heads up warning though this kind of practice will destroy your fretting hand fast so donāt go overboard. Alittle bit of a burn in your fretting hand is ok, but donāt proceed too far beyond the bodies limitations. Give your body time to rest and adapt. This concept comes from Grishaās picado flamenco exercises if you care to check out his YouTube channel.
a few months ago this kinda came out during my doodling sessions with my guitar. i notated in your area with that trilogy suite, but you can play this in any key that it fits on those strings. kinda combined the hot on your heels acoustic lick with that trilogy suite intro build up phase. this might take you alot longer to master, even i have days that i am unable to get through this mess clean.
1 Like
Assuming youāre going USX Yngwie style this is going to be the picking pattern the hardest parts are the transition from upstroke to the next down with the string change. They come at then end of the beat for the most part though. I circled those.
1 Like
now i had to edit in these awkward beat groupings, and tempo wise i wouldnt try to strictly use a metronome. but think more that each one of those beat groupings is a chunk, and if you have to during that ending upstroke of each of the first 3 chunks of each measure you can sort of get away with extending the note value. and over time learn to connect the beat grouping fragments faster and faster. this will help lend an aid to your mindās ear on how the lick should be sounded out if you are just seeing and trying this style of yngwie lick.
that from the Yng Way book?
No chris brooks on youtube, hes written some books about yngwies technique and neoclassical stuff. really struggling to get the right motion down.
I use very little edge picking with economy, but I do try to use some thumb/index movement to push through to the next string, really helps you zip up and down the fretboard easily. Kinda looks like this with repeated economy phrases:
This has helped me a load in doing economy. Itās the way you come back up to repeat it that is the key, as that gets you the repetitions.
Bad video I probably shouldnāt do this stuff before I go to bed lol but seriously it works, itās worked for me, I know this works as my whole playing is now based off this simple 3nps scale run. It is USX, so idk if thats what youāre after, but it works.
The pull offs make it work, and allow you to just grind it out over n over mindlessly, rep after rep. The pull offs coming back down are whats import. Itās down, up, pull off, when decending. Thats what lets you repeat it over n over.
my pick is generally 45 degrees. And I really do believe that small run has helped me more than anything. You can play most stuff with it. Or at least that style, it just works man. Do a lot of extra stuff to make it work for everything, but it really has been the key for me. It takes care of most picking, usx with pulloffs, or economy then pull offs to descend. That 3nps up n down run has help me loads.
when you do it, is it the michael romeo more faux rotational motion, the cesario slicing motion, or slicing motion with mental circular motion?
i might try to work on the michael romeo version as this isnāt a way i ever used the thumb/index just to see if i could utilize something with this motion compared to the others.
I wanted it to be the Cesario motion but Iām not convinced it is, my movements look too small compared to his:
I donāt recall the Michael Romeo motion but obviously love his playing, is his a bit flatter in appearance?
1 Like
the best way i have seen this motion was in that video discussing takayoshi ohmuraās helper motion speed picking video. here he is describing how the thumb and index have this half legit half faux rotation that you can get out of it. i think this is kinda how michael romeo does it.
Whole Video
Takayoshi Ohmura picking technique
Timestamp of faux rotation
Doesnāt it seem like this is what Romeo is doing during his economy picked explanation phrase?
Although I was quickly watching some of his newer solo video shoot videos on YouTube, and here it seems like when the tempo really starts cooking he starts using a ton of elbow motion with much less of that thumb/index thing.
Blazin tempo seems like some elbow to get to the speed required.
Iām not sure, if I would have to guess I would say he uses RDT wrist USX but I really donāt know, doesnāt seem to be a significant thumb/index thing but it can be hard to spot. I canāt tell if heās using elbow motion in the last clip or if itās just for tracking the jumpy phrasing, either way it sounds incredible as always!
yea i am not sure either but it is evident he is using that thumb index like shown in the explanation of the takayoshi ohmura. now if he does some rotation or if its back and forth only he would be able to tell us. the reason i think there is some rotation during the upstrokes on the musically ascended side. but this is why its so tricky because its not quite rotation anyway its kinda a faux rotation, only very little rotation with the thumb index unit depending on how much the body can kinda do.
So economy picking in my opinion is a more nuanced feel based technique that take a bit to get used to. It also is a technique that doesnāt necessarily require a USX or dwps picking hand because you are not trying to escape anything.
It may be more helpful to give pointers if you post a vid of where you are getting stuck and what feels off to you.
4 Likes
The rest stroke really helped me doing economy.
Having that tactical rest lets you be much more even. Just knowing about it and feeling it lets you be far more loose in your picking forces. Same as sweeping which is basically economy. Acually understanding its ok to put force on the next string helps a load.
1 Like
if you already have a firm grasp on this that grisha picado exercise concept that i showed above can really help develop speed, but it can be a very quick brutal exercise on the fretting hand, highly efficient/beneficial. DONT GO OVERBOARD LOL!
1 Like
Is it the first one you posted here?
1 Like