EJ 2nps pentatonics

Playing Technique
#1

Hi,

I have spent many years in and off trying to master EJ’s fast 2 nps pentatonic runs and finally, after realising that I’m a DSX player and starter each string in an upstroke (plus altering my pick grip), I think I’m starting to make some significant progress with speed in the last 24 hours alone. Very little beats the feeling of mastering a technique which has evaded you for so long.

I have completed all of the speed and motion tests on CtC, but haven’t translated any of this to a guitar. Yesterday’s playing triumph had happened separately to any of the systematic tests on CtC, so my (rhetorical to a point) question is this:

Do I carry on using the arm/wrist motions which work best for me from the tests, translating them onto guitar, or do I focus in on the technique at which I’ve been having success with, developing this? My concern is that it’s a bit of a red herring, though I seem to be developing speed a hell of a lot quicker and more comfortably with it.

Thanks go posthumously to Adam P, who’s YT video on DSX EJ pentatonic playing has helped me so much.

Matt

3 Likes
#2

I’d go with this. Especially if you’re seeing noticeable improvement in a short amount of time, I would keep riding that wave and see how far it takes you.

Biggest recommendation I would have is to make sure you record yourself, from multiple angles, and take some notes. Include things that might extend past just your hand / arm, like posture.

3 Likes
#3

Hey! I believe when something is good for you, good results and improvements come fast and kinda easy! So if you have found something that has given you great results there’s no reason to abandon that and go elsewhere.

With that said I’ve seen some people on this forum who have different picking modes if you will and are able to transition between them and switch between them at will, Troy has demostrated this extensively since that’s his specialty, so if you have another technique that also works well for other things there’s no reason to abandon that either, the question is if you are actually able to control and switch between different techniques at will.

But if you are getting great results with the actual instrument in hand personally I’ll stick with that as long as it keeps working, insetad of trying to apply a different technique.

When it comes to playing Eric Johnson pentatonic runs as a DSX player I think this is the video you are refering to?

#4

Yes good idea to record myself. I’m planning on buying a magnet when the next batch is out in order to really see what my picking is doing. It’s something I’ve had trouble with for so many years, I can’t remember how many. It’s only now that it’s starting to come together.

1 Like
#5

You’re absolutely correct. I also do economy picking for scalar type runs almost exclusively. I have it down enough that I can make the pick attack sound like it’s alternate picking (like Joe Stump) but don’t seem to use much DSX on scale type runs at the moment. The EJ stuff I’ve always wanted to be able to do; fast pentatonic runs just sound ace with the slightly wider intervals. I’ve also been gaining success this evening (UK time) with two nps arpeggios too which are now sounding quite fluid with only a modest amount of work. It’s exciting where this can take me now. What I do t want to happen is that I wake up one day and can’t do it. This is what I’ve had with loads of other techniques that I’ve been able to do on one day and then the next it’s all gone. I guess that just tells me that that technique wasn’t the one for me.

What I’m doing now is just working with little to no warm up.

The video link you attached is exactly the one; unbelievably helpful. I spent literally hours trying to play using USX as I thought that was how it needed to be done. Never occurred to me until CtC and Adam’s video (linked by someone on this forum) that it could all be done starting with an upstroke. Totally awesome.

I almost don’t want to go to sleep tonight so I can get some more practice in!

#6

I’ve experienced that before, in my case it’s vibrato that’s killing me, I used to be decent at it, but then I stopped practicing for a while, I completely lost my vibrato, I don’t know if it’s also because of some injuries I’ve had since then but I started practicing again more and I’ve been struggling to get it back.

Then my secondary USX motion happened the same, one day I found it by accident then it was gone completely a few days after, it wasn’t until I realized the exact anchor point my right hand should have that I got it back and much better this time around. But it was after years, it was crazy.

It’s also so important to make certain techniques a constant habit so that it feels more natural and comfortable with habit and practice, If I stop doing them they feel awkward.

#7

Yeah I hear what you’re saying. Unfortunately my vibrato has always been a bit crap; more like an uncontrolled spaz out than something that sound awesome.

I think with any technique, it’s almost as though one needs to look at every tiny detail of where the arm is, exactly where the pick is being held where on the guitar your arm sits, but sometimes even then, it’s gone the next day. I do also believe that your body, temperament, mind etc…. Also play a major part in your performance each day too though and not just purely physical technique.

Perhaps also it’s a warm up thing. Once I’ve fully warmed up after about an hour, maybe even the hard techniques are achievable to some degree but gone the next day because I’m not warmed up properly. Whatever I’m doing now seems to be working well with minutes of picking the guitar up again.

#8

Yeah another thing i’ve found is that if you need to play something fast it’s better to do it fast aswell even in short little bursts. As opposed to always doing things slow.

#9

Yep I’ve learnt that one the hard way too. I mean literally hundreds of hours spent gradually increasing the speed, thinking that would build speed when in actual fact, you have to start with speed even in tiny amounts.

1 Like
#10

This plagued me for years, turns out I just hadn’t discovered an efficient motion yet!

This is exactly what you want! After finding something that works you go through a process of motor learning, trying to recall and sustain the motion every time you pick up the guitar. At first this could take as long as 20mins (in my experience) but it gets quicker over a series of days/weeks until it’s there instantly, every time you pick up the guitar. If you are achieving this within minutes then that is exactly what you want, keep at it! :grin:

#11

One last question on all of this, how fast should I be aiming to practice EJ cascading 5s and 6s; what metronome speed for 4 per beat and 6 per beat?

#12

So I’ve gone to play what I’ve played over the last few days and it’s all gone again. I mean WTF? I’ve had this problem for 25 years. Thought it was finally resolved and
Yet I’m back to square one almost…again

#13

I’m not sure if this will help or not, but just in case: think of learning a new technique as learning a new skill, something like riding a bike or jumping rope, where there’s a component of momentum involved. Nobody masters those things instantly, and nobody learns how to do them by going as fast as they can right away, or going too fast too soon. General tips on how to do the movements help, but there are subtle things which cannot really be taught, only felt, and you need however long you need to make those subtle things a part of you.

When you “had” the mechanic you’re working on, it probably felt a particular way. You want to constantly try to recall that feeling, not ignore/shorten warming up (which is reacquiring the feeling). The better you get at it, the quicker it will come together, but you can’t rush it.

1 Like
#14

You’re absolutely right. A new skill does need time to develop. I think I get a bit cocky and over confident because it’s been achievable on one day or even two days, so I start trying to push the speed limit and it falls apart. I need to probably steer clear of a metronome for a while until the skill has embedded more before starting to work the speed up with one.

I got so frustrated just now that I had to walk away from it and kicked a football around outside with my son. I came back to it just now and it was back again for a few moments. Maybe it’s a tension thing too as kicking a ball around released some tension maybe

1 Like
#15

I actually looked it up and wrote it down the fastest notes he gets to in a couple of songs:

Desert Rose solo is 32nd notes at 91bpm
All About You is 16th triplets at 120
Lonely In The Night has 16th triplets at 148, though there’s only a couple of short bits where hit that.

#16

Nice! Thanks for that. I think it’ll be a while before I’m able to play them at that speed though. As you can see from this thread, I had some serious success at 2 nps patterns over the last couple of days and then today it seems to have deteriorated; probs because I’m trying to speed it up too quickly

#17

I wouldn’t worry about that. This is a thread I posted last week of Desert Rose at 95%…

…and the ups and downs to get there were constant. Even the steady tremolo at those tempos had their ups and downs.

#18

Man I wish this forum and website had existed when I was first trying to learn all of this in the 90s. It would have saved me a whole world of pain. I firs started learning and practicing the minor pentatonic scale using the first 3 fingers of the left hand then got into classical guitar and started practicing all of my scales with 4 fingers, including the minor pentatonic scale. I’m still doing this now, but my little finger is letting me down I think, probably because it shares the same tendon as the middle and ring fingers. Wondering whether I should go back to playing the scale with 3 fingers. I’ve noticed that Tory uses his first three in most of the EJ licks on thew cascade seminar and Ej goes alot of this too.

1 Like
#19

Troy, not Tory!! lol

#20

I’ve been saying that to myself daily since I got here last year lol

As for 3 finger thing… I’m missing a 1/2” off the tip of my middle finger so I use my pinky far more than I’d like. I’ve done the 3 finger thing on higher frets and as little as I use my middle, it’s easier than with the pinky on the lower frets. My middle just can’t get to some of those notes unless I’m in double digits.