Feedback needed on picking technique (w/ videos)

Technique Critique
#1

Hi all - this is my first technique submission on CtC. I wanted to get these videos up before my membership runs out since I’m not sure if I’ll be able to continue. From everything I can tell, I’m attempting to use DWPS + USX for my primary technique. Before I discovered CtC I seemed to be UWPS + DSX and that never felt right to me. I could tremolo pick fairly quickly on one string with my old motions, but I always had trouble getting any accuracy with that approach.

Around 5 years ago I needed to up my picking game for a band I joined and was about to go on tour with, so I spent around 6 months shifting to DWPS + USX (thanks for the free content, Troy. You really helped me). I mainly needed more accuracy for single string tremolo stuff and once I got that under my belt I didn’t really go that much deeper into the technique. Now, I’m at a point where I want to get significantly faster as well as traverse across the strings with accuracy.

With DWPS + USX I can comfortably pick 16th notes at 140 bpm. My problem lies in that I’m maxing out at around 175 bpm, but it requires warming up / taking a break / practicing tremolo picking in bursts / take a break / etc. by the end of my day I can do 175 bpm in 2 bar Bursts and its shoddy. I cannot seem to break past this barrier. I watched my videos back and it seems like I’m doing USX, but there are times where it looks like my motion turns into DSX (the faster I go).

In the ‘testing your motions’ section I decided to give those tests a shot and here’s what I ended up with:

-Forearm motion (my favorite): 210 bpm is comfortable, 220-230 is doable, but requires some effort.

-Elbow Motion: 210 bpm is comfortable, 220-230 is doable, but requires some effort.

-Wrist motion: 190 bpm max

Onto the videos:

Picking Technique front shot:

Fretboard view, normal speed:

Fretboard view, slo-mo:

Fretboard view, slo-mo + zoomed in:

And for good measure, my previous technique - UWPS + DSX (I can tremolo pick faster with this, but hand sync and string switching is hot garbage):

(I was originally using Dunlop Flow 1.0 picks, but they were too smooth for my liking. I switched to red Jazz iii’s for more resistance on the strings and my speed went down a little while I’m getting used to the new feel - I like them better, regardless).

Would love to see where my issues are. Thank you for the help!

#2

First of all, if money is an issue check out our scholarship program:

My initial feeling after watching the videos is that your “previous technique” (last video) is smoother and has actually great potential. Why not explore that?

You seem already aware of this, but if the technique is indeed DSX (and it looks elbowy, so it may well be), you’ll need to pair it with lines that only change strings after downstrokes.

I know you are saying that hand sync and string switching are not good, but that could be for a number of reasons. What does actually happen when you play some licks which require syncronization and string switching?

#3

I’m definitely going to apply for that scholarship - thanks!

I guess the reason I don’t like using that elbow / DSX motion is because it’s hard to apply to the music I already play as well as while I do like the tone for tremolo picked stuff, it limits me in how I can attack the strings since I feel more reliant on anchoring with the motion coming from my elbow. For the palm muted metal riffs I find DWPS / USX a lot easier and the tone is more to my liking.

On the other side of that musically, I do a lot of hybrid picking / fast country licks and that seems to be more of a wrist only / DBX type pairing. Mind you, with that stuff I’m not doing pure alternate picking, but a mixture of picking + legato + hybrid picking.

It’s weird, the picking feels smoother, but that’s where it ends in terms of it feeling natural. Also, if I committed to the elbow motion id pretty much have to say bye to things like the pop tarts lick / descending 4s / etc. no? I fall more into that camp of music over the dimeola/ McLaughlin type stuff. Maybe I’m misunderstanding.

Not trying to be difficult! Just seeking some clarity since it seems like I’d have to play lines I don’t dig on with a motion I’m not crazy about (UWPS). I’ll mess with it some more either way.

Thanks for the input.

#4

No problem! Before “giving up” on your DSX motion, one observation - which maybe you already know :slight_smile:

You can play a lot (all?) of these things with DSX, by starting phrases with upstrokes, changing fingerings, including pulloffs etc.

Also, I should point out that Mclaughlin and Di Meola are primary DSX players - so your “previous” technique is exactly what you want to approach their music!

Regarding USX, I suspect something may be going wrong with the motion if you have this speed wall at 175, and if it takes you so much warmup to get there. A correct motion can go full speed pretty much immediately, with zero or minimal warmup.

Rather that nitpicking the details of your current technique (this almost never works in our experience), I’d suggest some experimentation.

Try to do USX with a hand position that is completely different from your current one and see what happens. Something I often suggest (as an exercise), is to use the 3-finger grip (like Steve Morse, Albert Lee, etc.). Just to force yourself to go into unfamiliar territory.

As usual, no metronome and no long warmup routines. Just play a fast tremolo and see if it clicks!

#5

Apologies, I need to rephrase - dimeola / McLaughlin type lines are things I don’t like playing. I meant to say that I like the yngwie / Eric Johnson stuff a lot, which is all based around DWPS / USX.

I tried messing with the Morse style grip and man, that style sticks to my string like glue and triggers my string hopping. Mind you, I didn’t just try it for 5 minutes just now, but on several previous occasions. I also tried to use the andy wood style grip since that’s a little more comfortable for going between DSX and USX, but it makes my index / thumb wiggle and go circular in motion (also makes me string hop).

I ended up committing to the way Troy holds the pick since it keeps the last half of my index finger straight and is a lot easier to avoid string hopping. I’ve tried to use more edge picking with this grip to see if it makes tremolo picking easier, but I lose a ton of volume and it sounds very weak.

I’m trying to mess with my pick angle to see if it unlocks anything, using my DWPS grip. It makes no sense to me that the forearm motion test was the most comfortable, yet is giving me this issue once I introduce a guitar. Not that I think should be able to shred out of no where just because I can tap a table fast :joy:

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#6

Got it! You can still play almost all these lines with DSX doing some clever re-arrangements with the fretting hand.

Ha, ok! Better move on to something else! Have you tried the trigger grip?

I mean, there’s also the nuclear option to just use what you have now and try to play much faster than what you are used to. Whatever is keeping you <175bpm must “solve itself” if you manage to get a fer bars at higher speeds.

And by the way, 175 is plenty fast! I’m just concerned that you report discomfort when you do it

#7

I haven’t tried the trigger grip, but I’m assuming there’s a video for that, so I’ll check it out!

#8

Here’s the section you need for a few more options :slight_smile:

#9

Thanks!

Btw… this is ridiculous. I just broke out the metronome and put it to 190 and I’m yawning while I play 16ths with this elbow motion. No exaggeration. I’m yelling at my hands to play this tempo with the grip Troy uses.

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#10

Sometimes a good first step is to get good at playing many licks with whatever your best motion is at the moment. It may not be the motion you want, but you are likely to experience very fast progress.

Once you know the feeling of something that works, that’s the feeling you are looking for when seeking new motions to add to your toolbox!

EDIT: here’s Jeff Loomis playing Yngwie with DSX motion - starting licks on an upstroke!

EDIT2: I think Jeff is not aware that he is starting on Up. He does something weird at the start of the lick, like a downstroke rake or something, then somehow he ends up putting the upstrokes on the beat, as indeed DSX requires.

If he was aware of his mechanics, he could get also the start of the lick 100% clean.

That being said, my playing is like a fart compared to Jeff’s :wink:

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#11

Alright, I had to film this since the initial video I posted using elbow wasn’t close up (and not nearly as fast! My hands were freezing before :sweat_smile:).

I tense up a little bit in my shoulder area, but it’s something I can work on easily. This motion feels super smooth for this application.

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#12

Now we’re talking :smiley:

Awesome! I’m certain you can work on many more applications using this, including licks that use both hands and cover all strings. Just take inspiration from the EJ and Yngwie lines you like, and see if you can come up with DSX versions.

I can give you a couple of tricks that I like to use with DSX:

  • for pentatonics, start with 1 or 3 notes on the initial string (e.g. 8-5-8 on the low A), then play 2 or 4 (or 6) notes on all the others. Or do the normal 2nps stuff but start on an upstroke.

  • for 3nps scale shapes, you can play Yngwie 6-note patterns across all strings if you omit the firt 3 notes on the initial string, then 6 on all others. Or, start on an upstroke like Loomis :slight_smile:

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#13

I’m definitely going to start experimenting with this after I get some sleep. It sounds abysmal when I try doing something like the yngwie sixes though. I’m wondering if it’s even possible for me to reach these speeds with this level of ease using forearm / wrist motion vs elbow. It’s ridiculous, I know - my resistance to going back to this elbow technique. For everything I’ve played up to this point I’ve never used it and re-doing my licks for elbow usage seems like a huge undertaking. Even more ridiculous - I hate the way it looks :joy:.

I’m going to examine the way the pick is hitting the strings with this mechanic and see if I can inverse it for a smoother attack with forearm motion / DWPS. Or is that a fools errand?

Thanks again!

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#14

I know we have a pretty brainy approach around here… so it’s ironic that we often end up suggesting not to overthink / micromanage the movements :slight_smile:

But sure! If you get some insights that you can translate to the other motions, why not!

The test is however always the same: can your new approach go fast and easy on day 1? You have the elbow motion as a reference so you are already ahead of the game so to say!

Also, goes without saying that you can have more than one technique: learning to use elbow does not mean you can’t keep experimenting with USX.

Maybe treat the elbow motion as your “constuctive procrastination”: I’m sure it’ll bring some easy wins for you :slight_smile:

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#15

There’s not really anything similar between this elbow technique and forearm technique. They don’t work similarly and they don’t really feel similar when you do them fast either. If you’re just referring to pick attack, like edge picking, sure, some aspect of that is unversal. But that’s usually not the reason people can do one motion and not another. It’s usually just the joint motion itself.

If you want to try and figure out other motions over time you’re more than welcome to do that. However as @Tommo is pointing out this excellent elbow motion is the one that is working right now and your fastest path to making real music is to try and build vocabulary with it.

#16

@Troy
I was just referring to pick attack. I think it’s time to hang up the towel with supinated forearm / USX / DWPS (for now). I just picked up the guitar for the first time today and using the elbow motion, I’m playing 16ths at 180 bpm like it’s nothing. I tried switching back to the grip similar to yours and it’s not even close. I have a lot of work to do, but at least I have the raw speed with this motion.

I looked a little closer at what was happening and I may be detecting a hint of wrist motion in there, even at high speeds. I’ll have to shoot more video to confirm. It’s baffling to me that players can get this speed with just wrist motion. It turns to mush on me the faster I go (if strictly using wrist motion for fast alternate picking).

#17

I spent yesterday working on accenting with the elbow / wrist DSX to get more comfortable. I also went back to string hopping videos for tips on working it out of my playing when using USX / DWPS (what I originally posted about).

After doing some rest stroke work with that form and picking the strings lighter I was able to do 16ths fairly comfortably at 160 using the USX / DWPS motion. It’s not as smooth as my elbow / wrist technique, but it’s close enough.

If I’m comfortable at these tempos with both picking techniques, does it stand to reason I can push further with the USX/DWPS motion? I’m curious how @Troy approached learning all the other movements that weren’t his “default” movement that gave him the most speed with the least effort.

#18

I totally know what you mean.

But man, the tone you’re getting in “Picking Technique closeup (DSX / UWPS?)” video is incredibly good! Super consistent and healthy. Studio sound! :grin:

Following this thread because I think I’m naturally inclined toward DSX and experimenting with it, but actually more interested in USX because of how much more naturally it goes with metal riffs and palm muting.

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#19

Thanks man! I agree with you about the tone - I like it a little more for lead stuff when comparing to the tone I get when doing DWPS / USX. DWPS / USX gives me a sharper tone which I like for metal riffing though. I know Brendan Small makes the whole elbow motion / DSX / palm muting work for him (I love Dethklok), but in my case it sounds too dark / dull.

The more I read on here, the more it seems like DSX / UWPS is a default motion for a lot of players. I’m currently experimenting with more of a wrist motion since doing USX becomes possible, but I’m still getting used to the motions. I’ll do 8th notes at 150-160 with the rest stroke motion, DWPS / USX, then try to ramp it up to 16ths for a measure using smaller motions. I’m still more comfortable with angle pad grip though, but trying to do different motions to see if that sparks anything I haven’t thought of.

#20

The clip above is actually somewhere between 195 and 210 so there’s plenty of reason why 180 should feel easy. There’s probably more speed in this as you become more comfortable with it as well. I’m not usually super hung up on top-end speed, just smoothness and usefulness. But as you’re experiencing, when you find a motion where the top end is high, all the speeds below that feel even easier. So in a way, I now care more about top end than I used to.

I think elbow looks super cool. My partner Reyenne is a wrist player at normal human speeds, but can transition smoothly to elbow north of 250 sixteenths — on mandolin, of all things. It looks like a fearsome motor when she gets it going. It’s impressive.

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