Fingering For Whole Step sequences (1-3-5)

Playing Technique
#1

Hello:

Up until recently, I have always used my index, ring, and pinky to play 3 note phrases with whole step jumps such as 1-3-5, 5-7-9. etc.

I noticed that nearly EVERYONE uses their pointer, MIDDLE, and pinky for these.

So I started trying it out to see how it felt, and found it to be much easier when playing on the lower strings (notably the low E and A strings, and the lower frets).

However, I find it awkward/uncomfortable to do this on the higher strings, and in the higher frets and even on the middle strings around the middle of the fretboard. Due to the angle of my fret hand, my pointer, ring and pinky is just far more natural here.

My questions are:

  1. Does anyone alter between these 2 fingerings based on the fret and string they are playing?
  2. Would it be a bad idea to alter, for the sake of making things more complicated?
  3. Does anyone else use the pointer, ring and pinky for these?

Thanks for any tips

1 Like
Which fretting hand fingers do you use to play notes two frets apart (like 5 -7 -9)?
#2

I generally use the same fingers for all string sets, but I would say go with what works for you. Why not train both approaches and be the master!!!

1 Like
#3

This is how Paul Gilbert does it. He seems to get around just fine :wink:

2 Likes
#4

Gotcha thanks! Yeah I could train both. I donā€™t want to confuse my brain/fingers, but I suppose it will become natural if I work at it long enough

#5

Ah, great to know about Paul Gilbert! I was racking my brain trying to think of someone who uses their ring finger, and totally forgot to check out some videos of Paulā€™s

#6

I tend towards index, middle, pinky on the lower strings (E, A) on the lower frets (1-5ish), otherwise prefer index, ring, pinky. Itā€™s a fair question. Iā€™ve stopped a run to redo it with another fingering but none of them ever specifically present as ā€˜rightā€™ in this situation ā€¦which is weird, 'cause most technical things do for me at some point.

3 Likes
#7

That is so relieving to hear, as this is pretty much exactly what is most comfortable to me.

I was concerned that I would waste my time unless I picked one way for everything, as I donā€™t want to confuse myself during fast runs. But if you find it can work out, then this gives me some hope for this method!

1 Like
#8

I feel like this is another post of mine on this subject that will be very long, but if you continue reading there is a wealth of wisdom I have personally taken from Anton Oparin himself and several virtuoso classical guitarists in person, as well as my own observation of players like Batio and Gilbert with this wisdom in mind. I would really take the time to read what Iā€™m writing. I know you asked for three questions to be answered - presumably without an accompanying novel - so here are mine if you canā€™t be bothered to continue on.

  1. Yes.
  2. Only if youā€™re experiencing fretting hand problems including but not limited to poor pitch, excess muscle tension, etc. This is where it gets tricky. Many players donā€™t have the level of ā€œbody intelligenceā€ to understand if their posture for the fretting hand is inappropriate for what they are trying to play. There are several exercises that can correct this, if youā€™re curious.
  3. On my 25.5" scale, 24 fret guitar, the vast majority of my W-W fretting is 1-3-4. Same with Paul. Your observation that most players use 1-2-4 is dead-on accurate, and explains in part why so few people nail his style of playing. They often claim they canā€™t get the ā€œbiteā€ he gets with his alternate picking even in spite of doing everything right with their right hand. Ironically, itā€™s their poor fretting. I could link you cover after cover of people fucking up his technique due to poor fretting. Most players on YouTube fail his sound completely. It is what it is. Remy Hansen and Anton are the only guys Iā€™ve seen consistently nail it.

Bottom line: There are no rules for the left hand. Itā€™s dependent on the scale of the guitar you play, the number of frets, the sequences you are playing, etc. Itā€™s helpful to think note to note, and to think of 3NPS or 4NPS as ā€œhorizontal chordsā€, and not so much scales. The reason for thinking of scalar sequences as chords is that as you increase your speed, time dictates shorter spaces between the notes. Meaning, the hand has less time to relax or ā€œslackenā€, and you are essentially maintaining a hand posture for that position on the fretboard. Your hand needs to be in position and shift accordingly from string to string with extreme accuracy. This is why slow playing can also be devastating for the left hand; you are afforded the luxury of time, which fails to allow an average player the ability to see how costly poorly finger choices are at higher speeds. If you misfret a note, the finger(s) will be pulled out of position, as an increase in speed demands an increase in muscle relaxation. You have less conscious control over your fingers, meaning that if your hand cannot maintain that posture you will start fretting notes sharp or flat depending on where you are on the fretboard and what fingers youā€™re engaging. This occurs because the muscles relax and default to comfortable state. This ā€œcomfortable stateā€ is dictated by your position of the thumb on the back of the neck. The thumb acts as a hanger or ā€œstopperā€ for the hand.

One of the most amazing guitar feats Iā€™ve ever seen in my entire life was a masterclass seminar by a classical guitarist who played through an entire piece with only his right hand. Then he did it again, but took his left hand and added it in randomly as he moved through the piece. Paul Gilbert can do similar stuff with short sequences. So can Anton Oparin. You can only achieve this discipline if you have perfect fretting technique relative to your guitar and hands.

So ultimately there are many factors at play. This is one area where Cracking the Code is severely lacking, because the interplay between the left and right hand via sympathetic tension is critical. Not understanding this is how you get a lot of undesired problems like swiping, string noise, and weird muscle engagement of the picking hand that makes playing more laborious. Whatever you do with one of your hands you will see happen to the other through sympathetic tension. Thereā€™s no such thing as a ā€œfree lunchā€ here. If you fuck up the left hand, you fuck up the right hand. Always.

If you need more proof, go to my alternate picking thread where I did a big post on Paul screwing up left hand fingerings for 3 minutes straight on Intense Rock 2. He even does this in the intro solo of Intense Rock 1. Itā€™s pretty crazy to see. He is pulling notes out of tune left and right in some areas. The playing is so fast itā€™s very hard to hear. I should clarify he has a big tendency to do this from frets 8-16. He will mix up fingers 1-3-4 and 1-2-4 on his 25.5 inch scale guitar, 24 fret guitar. His cleanest, most insanely accurate playing occurs when he ditches 1-2-4 in its entirety for runs such as Intense Rockā€™s 3 octave lick. You know the one if youā€™ve seen the videoā€¦ He goes from 5-7-8 on the low E all the way to 13-15-17 and plays it as clean as a whistle.

I could go on and on.

Apologies if this is a ton of information, but I suffered from poor fretting for a few months in 2019 and it destroyed my ability to progress on the instrument to extreme levels of speed 140+ BPM sextuplets for 3NPS string playing. No one here was able to help me. Eventually, I had to seek Antonā€™s wisdom and it worked to help me understand why. You need both 1-3-4 and 1-2-4, no matter what.

If anyone wants a thread on this, or wants me to put several exercises together that will help rectify fretting hand problems, let me know. I will make either a separate post, or post in my picking thread.

edit x1: Made this post even longer

3 Likes
#9

This really depends on location on the neck and hand size. below fret 9 I favor i-m-p but past like 12 I favor i-r-p since it allows more comfortable runs on the higher frets. If bends are involved Iā€™ll try to end on the ring finger for better bend control. Gilbert or Vai are probably bad examples since they have massive hands.

3 Likes
#10

Iā€™m starting to understand this notion more and more. The slight lack of synch between the hands is more often a symptom of the tension rather than the cause.

2 Likes
#11

Amazing info, thank you so much. So happy to hear that someone else has put a lot of thought and research into this. I always feel like I overthink things, but I feel this is a very important issue. Also, I have spent the past 6 months totally re-learning the way I hold my pick after 15 years of using trailing edge (thanks to this site!), so the less things I need to re-learn the better.

Anyway, I am headed over to check out your other thread now. The things you have noticed about Paulā€™s playing is invaluable, as I can use it to figure out what to avoid and what to pursue.

And I must note - I am really glad to hear that your conclusion is that both 1-3-4 and 1-2-4 are needed. This is what feels best to me, and now I feel comfortable enough to perform these sequences both ways. So itā€™s just a matter of putting it all together and making it second nature.

As for exercises, if they are ones you have already created then sure! Iā€™d love to check them out. But donā€™t go out of your way and create new ones if it is too much work.

I appreciate everything!

2 Likes
#12

Awesome thank you. Great to hear that there are multiple people in here that alternate between the two finger groupings

#13

I donā€™t alternate, but I might try it!!!

1 Like
#14

I use both ways actually, though I didnā€™t think much about it.
ā€¦
Now after couple of experiments I may say that seems like it depends on tposition on the fretboard and strings Iā€™m playing. On thicker strings and near the neck I prefer 1-4-5 (index-ring-pinky).
And it depends on the type of a passage Iā€™m playing, what goes before and what goes after. I have even found out that when I play major scale 3nps I use 1-4-5 ascending and 1-3-5 descending for some reasons. Kinda incosistent )

1 Like
#15

Awesome, thank you for your input!

I was JUST thinking about the fact that I also sometimes play the same passages with different finger sets ascending and descending, depending on what is played right before it. Happy to hear someone else does this!

#16

This may sound like a silly question but lately Iā€™ve noticed that while I have been trained to use fingers 1 2 and 4 to play frets 5-7-9, 3-5-7, 7-9-11 etc. but when I go past fret 14-15 using the same finger combination feels really difficult. Stretching the second finger away from the first feels especially difficult on the low a and e strings. I discovered this while practicing the descending 6 note pattern in Technical difficulties. It throws off my two hand synchronization. What somewhat solved the issue was using 1 -3 -4 fingers for such patterns past the 14th fret but then I have to train myself to use them in 3 nps sequences (fingers normally default to 1-2-4). So I am just curious what fingers do you guys use for the said pattern?

  • Fingers 1-2-4 on higher frets
  • Fingers 1-3-4 on higher frets
  • Fingers 1-2-4 everywhere
  • Fingers 1-3-4 everywhere

0 voters

#17

You can find some answers in the similar topic:

Basically my answer is: it depends on strings (higher/lower), overall passage direction (ascending/descending), local passage direction on one string (ascending/descending), previous and next notes and finger positions, what is the next passage (and where on the fretboardI need to play it) etc.
Another words - I choose whatever my hand feels easier to do.
Most of the time itā€™s: 1-2-4, 1-3-4, and 1-2-3. I also use 2-3-4 sometimes (usually near the end of the neck on the highest strings).
Soā€¦ I guess you need one more option in your poll )

#18

Past the 12th fret my little finger doesnā€™t want to go anywhere near the bottom two strings so I just use 1-2-3 for everything.

If I really really want to utilise all the fingers up there I have to sling the guitar super high and I donā€™t like picking with it up there.

#19

Thanks for the feedback guys but donā€™t you have to retrain your fingers. I mean at speeds above 130 bpm 16th note triplets, it is impossible to consciously switch finger combination for certain frets. Muscle memory takes over and my hand tries to use whatever fingering was trained most for 3 nps sequences.

#20

When you play an unfamiliar passage first couple of times - sure, thatā€™s what happens. But then I start to learn the whole song and I try to speed up gradually. Then I find that some freaking passage doesnā€™t feel right at some tempo, so I try different stuff until Iā€™m totally satisfied (i.e. I can play the passage fast enough without the feeling that my fingers turned into a crazy breakdance-spider).

ā€“ updated ā€“
I guess from one point of view itā€™s a bit easier for me to choose different fingers since I had piano training. From other point of view because of an injury I have less options sometimes. Kind of Balance of the Universe )