Is This Circle Picking?

Here is the vid you asked for @Frylock . I tried to stay in my 2 finger mode only. I think this is called Economy Circle Picking. What do you call it @Troy ?

I only pick like this if I anchor on the face of guitar. I’ve been palm anchoring a lot lately. Later everyone!
Later, Fry!
-Cheeseburger :hamburger:

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Thanks for sharing this! Just edited the YouTube link — apparently if you post the shortened “share” URL (https://youtu.be/wAPmrNsbZ5Q) it doesn’t display the auto-embed correctly.

That seems to require the full URL, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAPmrNsbZ5Q, on a line by itself. Just an FYI :smiley:

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@Hanky_Pooh
I would definitely call this circular picking due to you using your thumb and first finger kind of pushing through the strings back and forth. More so then forearm rotation.

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Nice playing! That circle picking style reminds me of how Norifumi Shima and Takayoshi Ohmura pick.

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Thanks @Brendan !!! That’s good to know :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:\m/

I never heard of those guys. I’ll check em out. lol

Thanks @Judmeister . I’ll keep calling it that then :guitar:

This doesn’t look “circular” in any substantial way - it looks like a picking motion that involves finger motion. And it looks like you’re doing at least a few variations on it here depending on whether you’re alternate picking or sweeping. Which joints, what kind of movement, are questions we can ask.

But in general, if I get what you’re asking, this is the problem: the terms “circle picking” and “circular picking” are thrown around so loosely as to have become a general stand-in for anything to do with fingers. Ohmura’s technique doesn’t look circular, Yngwie’s doesn’t look circular, and Eric Johnson’s technique doesn’t look circular. And they are all slightly different from each other.

A lot of this seems like a throwback to a time when we didn’t really know what was going on with picking technique, and ascribed magical powers to anything superficially different — with a dash of loosely defined / confusing terminology to boot.

What you’re doing here sounds great, and looks second nature to you. I’d certainly keep doing it if it feels comfortable. But I’d lean toward retiring the term “circle picking”, for all of our sakes!

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The superficial difference is finger motion picking. Which is different from wrist picking. After your reply, I decided to research into what “Circle Picking” actually is then. Everything I can find on “Circle Picking” is economy picking with the fingers, just like I’m doing in the shared video.

That being said, What is real “Circular Picking”, then, if the term is a “stand-in” for finger motion picking?

There are other people on here that want to know also. Someone asked, on another topic, if anyone could upload a video of Circle Picking. This video is my interpretation of “circle picking”. So, If I stand corrected, we still would like to know what circle picking is then.

In the video I purposefully try to stay finger motion only/economy for sake of demo. I’m economy picking, not alternate. I’m not trying to sprinkle any magic dust on it. Because I can pick however I want. Which is usually in a closed handed wrist mechanic. :kissing_heart:

I’ll gladly retire the term if it’s used in error. But not for hiding the acknowledgment of (finger motion only) picking for some reason. Because it is a technique that’s different from the normal wrist / elbow alternate picking that shred snobs say is the only one to learn.

If there is no such thing as “Circle Picking”… That is the term “finger motion picking” has been coined now. According to everything I’m looking at. I’ll gladly stand corrected if presented with information that is suffice for doing so.

I’ll leave future posts to the pros on here.

Cheers :beers:

Hi Hank! Thanks for uploading the clips - this is solid paying and apologies if I seemed to imply otherwise.

Finger motion is undoubtedly an important part of the picking technique landscape. I wouldn’t worry too much about the term ‘circle picking’ and what it may or may not be. My best guess is that it is simply a catch-all term used to describe a variety of different finger movements that some people think look circular. It’s probably not much more than that.

Instead, what I think we need to do is try and figure what types of finger motion exist, how they work, and when it might be beneficial to use them versus other methods. We did a little of that in the Martin Miller “MP Joint” analysis:

https://troygrady.com/interviews/martin-miller/analysis-millers-mechanics/

The challenge with a lot of this stuff is that there are fewer players that use principally finger-oriented techniques. In the case of Martin’s technique, there’s nobody else we know of who uses this movement, and Martin himself wasn’t really conscious of doing this until we sat down. We’ve talked about it since, and he can now feel when he’s clicking into it. He’s a great teacher so maybe he’ll come up with a method for teaching this eventually.

Anyway, fingers! A little category of mysteries we’d like to know more about.

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Edit: Sorry, Kiko Loureiro’s movement looks pretty similar to Martin’s, at least in terms of the MP lifting. Martin may have additional components to his technique (?) in concert with the lifting movement. Or not. A conversation for another thread…

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:metal::grinning::ok_hand:

Thanks for posting. As Troy’s responses to you have sort of covered already, the reason I was curious for a demonstration of what you meant by “circle picking”, was because there seems to be a lack of standardization of what it means. For what it’s worth, I think where people get “circular” from, is that many of the finger movements that get labelled “circular picking” entail crossing the string closer to the nut in one stroke direction (usually down), and crossing the string closer to the bridge in the opposite stroke direction (usually up).

No matter how we dissect and label things, you’ve clearly found something that gives you results, and that’s the most important thing.

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Great playing. I think all Troy was getting at with the terminology is that circle picking is one of those unicorn phrases that no one really knows for sure how to define. I never understood in what plane people are referring to with that term. With more precisely terminology like CtC is endeavoring to popularize, it’s easier to define and therefore replicate. We’ve all got thumbs, wrists and elbows, so using terms grounded in kinetics and whatnot will service the education of guitar more nobly I think.

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Exactly. In fact, I’m even ok with using the term “circle picking” if we can identify a particular case of this which actually is circular and benefits from being that way.

@Frylock points out that this may be the case when the pick crosses the string at one point, then comes back across the string in another location. So in other words, circular in the same plane as the strings.

As far as I can tell, this can only happen if you have a bend in a joint that is present in one direction, and not present on the way back. For example, if your thumb middle knuckle — the “IP” joint — is bent on the downstroke, and straight on the upstroke, you’d hit the string at two different spots, creating probably an oval. What would be the benefit of doing this? I’d guess nothing, unless it’s a side effect of some other movement that does have a benefit.

More commonly, when players demonstrate the movement, they usually use the same movement simply played forward and reverse. For example, bend the IP joint on the downstroke, unbend it in reverse for the upstroke. This would trace an arc, not a circle. I would not call that ‘circle picking’.

Again, these are just hypotheticals. In Hank’s case, for example, IP joint movement isn’t even happening most of the time.

The second issue is, what happens to string switching? If you want to get over the strings cleanly, the movement either needs a pickslanted path, or a semicircular crosspicking path. Otherwise, you’re stuck playing on a single string, maybe swiping all the changes. Thinking about picking movements in a vacuum, without regard to string switching, is how we got into all that trouble in the first place.

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“Circular picking” isn’t part of my tool box, but my perception is that if it is in fact “a thing”, the case is as you describe above: the “circle” part that gives rise to the name is a side effect of something else that has a benefit.

I think where people conclude “circle” rather than an arc is that we often see a complementary wrist deviation or compound wrist movement that causes the net path of the pick tip to follow a vaguely elliptical path. I believe I’ve read explanations in the past that try to describe the movement as analogous to drawing a bunch of tiny circles with a pencil while your wrist is anchored to a table (my instinct is to do this with a counter-clockwise pencil stroke, can’t speak for others), so if there were any value in investigating the physiology of the movement, there’s a possible baseline for you (though as I delve into below, there’s probably variation in how people achieve that too).

If there’s any value in the movement, I think it might come from an idea a few of us discussed in another thread re: forearm rotation: the idea that there’s a kind of elastic loading and unloading going on, where you feel like you’re loading up potential energy with an active movement in one direction, then getting the “return” movement for free (analogous to alternately compressing and releasing a compressible spring). My attempts at a “drawing tiny circles” type movement involve an IP joint that moves slightly, but is close to a 90 degree bend at all times, but the movement also includes flexion of the carpometacarpal joint of the thumb. While the CMC joint movement is subtle, it results in a feeling of “squeezing” on the downstroke and “releasing” on the upstroke (even if there are actually antagonists somewhere else doing the work during the “releasing” phase).

I realize my descriptions are sinking into pre-code hand waving a bit there, but my point is that I can see that maybe there’s something interesting going on with this movement that’s away from the IP joint.

Another possible benefit of the “drawing circles” instructional metaphor was that it might have helped people keep the pick depth consistent and/or kept the pick slant relatively neutral, which could be a reason people strongly associate it with “economy picking”.

But one place where the “drawing circles” metaphor becomes vague is that it’s achievable through different movements. The movement I experience that seems to be driven mainly by flexion at the thumb CMC joint and a complementary wrist motion is very different from more IP-joint dominant movements by someone like Ohmura.

Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean there are any broader implications with respect to string switching, and as you and @Hanky_Pooh have both observed, this mostly seems to be something that people apply when they do economy picking (or sweeping, or whatever we want to call “consecutive pickstrokes in the same direction on two or more strings”).

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I imagine if you are going into the plane of the string on the thumb extension and then out on the way back then that could be used for string switching. and the reverse for upward pick slanting as well perhaps. Tony McAlpine picks like this sometimes i think. I think I only stated circular picking as that was the name for it back in the day.

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I have the impression that Gambale’ s picking motion sometime traces an oval trajectory in the strings plane. If I remember correctly, this happens in some of his sweeping licks going back and forth between 2, or 3 strings. I also recall noticing his thumb joint having different degrees of bend on the way up/down. I will look for some video evidence later today!

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That’s because Gambale strictly economy picks as well. Right now I economy pic close handed, which if I remember correctly, that’s how Gambale used to pick on some 80’s instructionals and probably now.

People keep saying “hey you found something that works for you” on my video example here. BUT I DON’T PICK THAT WAY!!! It was only to show what I THOUGHT circle picking was!

Circle picking is economy picking and sweep technique. But make sure it looks real circular or it doesn’t count! :scream:

Your friend,
-Hankysteen Malmsweep