Issues with 2nps playing

Technique Critique
#1

Hey all,

I’ve noticed an issue when trying to do 2nps. Doing it with a downward pick slant so that I can start on a downstroke doesn’t feel right. It might be that I’m primarily a USX player, but for the life of me I can’t seem to get to the speeds I’d like doing this. And I have trouble getting it reliably clean and faster than what I put in the video. I know that’s not much to go on, but I recorded myself with slow-mo trying two notes per string on two strings, and then across the strings.

I also see this manifesting in this lick I’m trying to nail which is mixed pickslanting, but has a noticeable 2nps little section, and I tend to get tripped up by it. Not sure if it shows in the video, but I figured I’d post that one as well.

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#2

I was just having a quick look at your previous thread and your DSX is incredible!

Instead of trying to learn a new USX motion why not take advantage of your DSX motion and arrange some of your 2nps phrases for DSX?

The video in this thread below is a gold mine for these types of rearranged licks:

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#3

I’ll give that another shot. I think part of it is I get tripped up doing an upstroke first, hence the mismatch. Always learned to start everything with a downstroke for one reason or another. Probably cause a lot of metal stuff starts with USX techniques cause of downpicking, I’m guessing. Which is where things are weird, cause I can USX doing rhythm stuff without many issues, but switching to my wrist motion for leads I’m DSX mostly, but can still do the switches for scale runs up to a point.

#4

I wanted to say that I also have issues syncing up my hands when I start on an upstroke due to never thinking to start on an upstroke when I was younger. I have practiced this recently and I am better now at syncing my hands with upstroke on downbeat but with Triplets, I can start on the beat or off the beat and have no problems. Even if I displace the first 16th note before, or after the beat, I can play fairly well. I’ve experimented with some 2NPS Pent scales starting with an upstroke and it ‘feels’ comfortable but at faster speeds, I still can’t play them as fast as starting on a downstroke (to my weakness) which feels more awkward but I can sync it and still play faster. I also use a lot of HO & PO’s to help setup my string changes so I can use my DSX which is most comfortable for me. Sorry, I can’t help you but I can relate to your message which is why I responded.

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#5

It’s great to know there’s a few of us with this issue. And that gives me some ideas as to what to do. I’ll record myself attempting starting with an upstroke 2nps.

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#6

I have the same behavior. To me is even more noticeable on descending licks, where I instinctively start with upstroke, specially on pentatonic licks. However, like you, especially on ascending licks, it’s more natural to me to start with a downstroke, which creates this little paradox. I’ve been playing guitar for 30 years and I never understood why I always did better on descending licks, but now I know it. I have the Troy Stetina Speed Mechanics book for ~20 years and I always had trouble doing some of the exercises at the speed he does (e.g. ex.36 and 37). Troy is a USX player so for him it was natural to write those exercises starting with downstrokes, which will make DSX players to struggle at high speeds.

#7

2nps is one of the harder things because it requires smaller chunking. I find my brain has difficulty counting only 2 notes. In order to help get around this, I use a metronome set to a relatively slow speed so I can concentrate on how 2 notes sounds and alternate between 2 strings ala Zakk Wylde. Paying attention to the rhythm and that I am playing the notes in time with progressively less slop and tension. I do start with accenting the first beat of each which is also difficult as my brain tends to want to accent the second beat, which is something I do later so I can do both. I do this both descending and ascending on each pair of strings and getting the feel on each pair is slightly different.

This will help you maintain steady rhythm through playing across the strings after a while. Remember not to overdo it and stick to about 15 mins per exercise. You will begin to notice after a while that you can “lock in” on it easier and play it accurately and cleanly. Once you can do it effortlessly try doing it faster. I always push for being on the edge of controllable rather than completely uncontrolled.

For me starting fast doesn’t work, so this method is what does for me. I must get the motion correct first, then I can do it faster. I can’t clean up super slop that is uncontrolled.

Hope it helps.

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#8

Made any progress with this?

I’m working on nailing DSX pentatonics at the moment and it’s deceptively hard!

#9

It’s been tricky. Working on this exposed another issue I realize I have where I flip from focusing on a downstroke as the downbeat to the upstroke, and I’m noticing this doing 16th note measured tremolo picking at 180+bpm. I’m in this weird situation where my body wants to start on an upstroke for stuff, but my years of studying downstroke starts everything is going against it. At least that’s what it seems like.
Making things really hard for rhythm playing and all that.

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#10

Practice both, until you can do them both just as easily and intuitively.

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#11

Chiming in here, I am a DSX player also, 2 NPS even notes per string stuff is currently pretty slow compared to you guys here; my max clean is about 16ths @ 152bpm but each week I am getting more comfortable with a faster “base” tempo. Onwards and upwards!

#12

Fretting hand speed can be a limiting factor here. 2NPS at 152bpm is roughly equivalent to EDC stuff at 228bpm.

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#13

I’ve been incorporating more and more 2nps stuff into my playing but I also still mess around with shreddy stuff and I attempt to copy Gilbert’s right hand often because he always posts clips like these on his Instagram. But man, his right hand just looks so tense keep all his fingers flexed like that lol. I’ve had mild success imitating his form it depends on the day

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cr4O4YHuFrH/?igshid=NjZiM2M3MzIxNA==

#14

What’s interesting is how “in our heads” the whole “start on an upstroke” thing really is. We’ve all got the capability. If you were listing to an uptempo tune and tapped your index/thumb on a table (as if you were holding a pick), sort of like a door knocking motion, you’d probably feel pretty comfortable and not think this feels weird at all. Wrist flexes (down on the table) on the downbeats, and extends (lifts off the table) on the upbeats. Translate that to a guitar RDT motion, and it’s the same as making the upstrokes start on the beat.

That concept help me lock it in. To help get it feeling natural on the guitar I would just sort of ‘tap’ my pick on the strings to the beat of some tune, then try going into some pentatonic licks.

#16

Well FWIW, that’s faster than me just trying it right now.

#17

Oh it’s 100000% in my head. The mismatch for me is because of learning downstroke first but being primarily a DSX player for lead stuff who has a habit of resting the palm heel on the guitar past the lowest string, when for metal rhythm that often doesn’t work because of the garage spikes problem when you hit a power chord on a downbeat, and also having trouble chunking 4s doing 16th note tremolo picking. And then the 2nps is just another issue entirely that I can’t seem to nail, even still.

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