Just isn't "clicking" for me yet

Lots of great responses in the thread. I’d just like to add that the motions in your two videos look more or less identical. In other words, the change in grip does not seem to change the motion. And since you’re looking for a faster, smoother motion, you need to change something else! Try different anchor points, different angles, different picks and so on until you find something that works.

Also, and this may have been mentioned already, I know you said that your goal is to develop a fluid wrist motion. But don’t close the door on the other motions just yet! Chances are you already have a fast, smooth motion that you can use to get some fast phrases going. This will at least give you a feel for fast playing. You can always go back and work on wrist only if you want to.

1 Like

That’s really clever! Thanks for sharing. I’ve got some ideas I’m going to try as well.

I came to similar conclusion last night. I realized that yes - I’ve been trying this stuff for weeks but really just keep doing the SAME thing every night and hoping for a different conclusion. That’s madness.

So this weekend I’m going to try a different pick and I’m also going to stand up and use various strap lengths (so the guitar will hang at different levels).

The thing that made me realize this is: tension. Tension is our body’s way of saying: “this isn’t working”. I’ve spent too much time trying to just brute force my way through tension. :grimacing:

Thanks for your reply!

2 Likes

Hey @Rivethead, I’m a bit late to the party and I see you have got many good replies already!

At the risk of repeating what has already been said, from the two videos you posted it’s hard to tell whether you are doing USX correctly. This is because the speed is low enough that you coulg get away with inefficient motions, and also because the filming angle doesn’t let us see very well the interaction between pick & strings.

I see @joebegly already gave you a link to the filming instructions, so that bit is sorted :slight_smile:

The most logical next step is to record a tremolo on a single string with a “down the strings” perspective, possibly both at real speed and in slow motion (if your phone does it). Just pick a single note fast for a few seconds, and we’ll take a look!

Thanks for the reply! I plan to do this - hopefully this weekend. I’ve been messing around with home-made magnet ideas and I think I’ve come up with something that will work. It involves a Go-Pro, a large rubber band (originally zip ties) and a brass nut…

For everyone following this thread, I continue to test and explore wrist motions. Still haven’t found “it” yet, but I’m not discouraged. I feel like I’m making progress. A few things I’ve learned:

  1. Picks wear down. :grin: I tried some wrist motions with various picks I had on hand, just to see if different picks would help me unlock a motion. When I went back to my trusty Jazz III, I picked up a NEW one rather than the one I had been using for…well so long I can’t remember. And that (a new pick) made a big difference in the “feel” of my picking/motions.

  2. Wrist motions that were originally awkward aren’t so awkward anymore. I still haven’t found a wrist motion that gets me into the shred zone but I feel like I’m getting closer. But…

  3. Any amount of supination instantly slows me down. I think this is because I have a natural tendency to want to use elbow motion and a DSX path. The moment I rotate my forearm for downward pickslant…it feels like slamming on the brakes. Don’t know if that’s physical, mental, or both.

  4. The only motions that have allowed me into the shred zone are an elbow motion with DSX path (using trigger grip…I can’t quit get there with my usual side-pad grip) and, one time, a forearm rotation/gypsy thing with the wrist flexed to the max and tons of edge picking)

  5. I still don’t understand how finding a fast motion, any motion, is the first step in developing a usable USX wrist motion…the whole “filling in a crossword puzzle” analogy.

I know the above isn’t so helpful without video. I hope capture down-the-strings views of the motions I can do as well as my current USX wrist motion (which I feel like is better and faster than what I’m doing in the videos I previously posted).

Regardless, I want to thank everyone again for all of your advice and support within this thread and others…

Here is a down-the-strings view of my most comfortable picking position (side-pad):

I know this isn’t shred speed. My goal is to make it to shred speed with this grip. I’m not sure if this video helps at all, but it was a good trial to see if my homemade magnet would work. If you see anything worthy of a comment from this, please share.

And here’s the same video, trigger grip with me getting to what I think might be shred zone. This is elbow motion, but people have asked if I can do any fast motion…well here’s what I can do:

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer. I feel like my next steps are to continue searching for a fast motion and trying to video tape it if/when I find something.

This last video shows a perfectly good fast motion. It looks like DSX. Build on this.

2 Likes

Agreed. For now, just for now, put the other motion on the back burner. The quickest way you’ll get that one faster is to embrace what you’re already fast with. From there you will get a reference point. Welcome to the elbow club!

1 Like

Yeah! Second video for the win, indeed a DSX motion. Your next steps could be:

  • Using this motion for some fast licks on a single string, trying to sync up left and right hand.
  • Using this motion with licks that only change strings after downstrokes.

Let us know how that goes :slight_smile:

About the first motion, I am not 100% sure but it may well be string hopping. If you can’t do it faster than what you show in the first video, chances are this motion is inefficient and speed-limited, no matter how long you keep hammering at it.

Thanks all for the replies!

I cannot really “control” that elbow/DSX motion. It’s simply me locking my wrist/forearm (with tension) into an iron bar (a description I’ve heard Ben Higgins use…which seems to perfectly describe mine).

In addition to not being able to control it…it burns up my forearms after about a minute. Fortunately, I don’t think it’s unnatural pain…it’s the lactic acid build up in the muscle type of pain.

Does this sound familiar to other elbow-users? Does anyone have suggestions on how to develop “control” over this? When I try to slow elbow motion down, my mind/body wants to immediately switch back to wrist. It’s a real battle and everything falls apart.

I keep re-watching my down-the-strings wrist motion video and it really looks to me that I’m using DBX motion (string hoping) - despite my intent not to! But maybe I’m just seeing things that explain why I can’t go faster…

I think I responded the same way when Troy suggested to me I capitalize on my elbow mechanic. I know how you feel!

I think like all things, it’s better “in the middle” :slight_smile: This sounds like one end of the tension spectrum, where a totally relaxed mushy loose hold/attack is the other. There’s got to be somewhere between those 2 extremes. When I do elbow mechanic I feel some tension. I don’t feel like I’ve turned my arm into an iron bar though. I’m also not holding the pick with a death grip. It’s possible to shake someone’s hand firmly without being one of those alpha-male jerks that’s trying to inflict pain on the other person, right? Same thing here.

Maybe instead of ‘slow down’, we need to just ‘ease up’ a little? Back to the table tap thing…if you knock on a table with the ulnar side of the hand making the contact, with a firm wrist and your elbow driving the motion with 8th notes around 150 bmp does that feel exactly like your picking movement? When I do that it doesn’t feel stressful. I could do that for 30 seconds no problem, no lactic acid build up. That’s the same movement you want, more or less, for an elbow mechanic tremolo.

Lastly, in addition to not gripping too tightly, I’m also trying to make sure my pick depth isn’t too deep and I’m trying to constantly rest stroke on the string directly above the one I’m picking (positionally, as we are DSX). If you use too much pick, you may feel stuck and try to make up for this with even more tension. That pick should glide right through the string in both directions.

Possibly! @tommo mentioned he thought that may be string hopping. When I first watched it, I thought so too but didn’t even mention it because I thought your faster motion seemed much more promising, near term. It’s a bit of a detour (if you really want to play USX wrist motion as your endgame goal) to get this elbow thing working but I really think once you embrace/tame it that you’ll know what fast and smooth feels like. Sounds to me overall like you’ve got the fast part, we just need to work on making it feel smooth. That’s where the excess tension you’re feeling could be throwing a wrench into this whole thing. Sorry that was so long! I have a hard time speaking concisely, working on it…

2 Likes

Hey sorry to spam you @Rivethead but I thought of something else that may help you. Change up picks or pick grips too! You’ve got something that’s partially working in terms of speed, just not control. Good luck and keep up the good work!

Yes, I think understand. Last night I backed off the aggressiveness (I’m not sure that’s the right adjective here) and with elbow motion and trigger grip got a very fast fluid motion that continued for a long time. Honestly, it felt like I could have kept going for hours…there wasn’t much stress or tension in the biceps or triceps working the elbow motion. The wrist/forearm was still locked into the iron bar, but I think the key was I backed off on the amount of pressure on the pick. And…I wasn’t video taping it. I think taping yourself adds some stress…or maybe that’s just me. :slight_smile:+

I feel like my pick depth is just right. But I’m having a hard time with the rest stroke thing. For decades, I’ve played by the belief that I should keep the pick as close to the string as possible. I’m finding it hard to give that extra effort to push the pick a little further into the next sting. But I’ll keep working on it.

I’m willing to do it if it gets me to my end goal of fast, fluid wrist motion. But man does it feel like more than a detour. It felt like I started over! I tried to work on an ascending run that I’m familiar with. It’s best suited for USX as the string changes are on upstrokes, so I flipped it around and started the run with an upstroke. It was really hard for me to slow it down enough to sync the left hand AND use elbow motion. My mind/body immediately want to revert to wrist motion at those slower speeds. It took a surprising amount of mental focus to keep using that elbow.

I think I bit off too much at once. I think maybe I should try just playing one note on one string at a slower speed. With my elbow motion, there’s no speed control (that’s mostly what I mean by “no control”). It’s either “ON” at full speed, or “OFF”. I think maybe I should try to use the elbow motion slower and then be able to accelerate to my fast speed. Once I have speed control, then I think I should find a completely new riff to work on. Probably a McLaughlin riff from the Pickslanting Primer.

Does that make any sense?

To be honest, I’m still not sure I understand the long-term goal of using elbow motion. Is it just to experience fast fluid picking motion? If it is, I don’t see how this leads to finding a useable wrist motion. I know Troy has used a crossword puzzle analogy and that certainly seems logical. But once my mind/body find and get used to a fast fluid elbow motion, does it just “know” what to do to get the wrist to do the same thing?

No apology necessary. I truly appreciate the time you took to make a detailed and helpful post!

Will do. I did spend some time trying elbow motion with my more familiar side-pad grip. Initial results were encouraging. It’s not as fluid or even sounding as when I use trigger grip, but I think I can get it there.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you’re set on doing a wrist motion? Certain songs/licks you’d like to play that would be a pain if you were going to do DSX exclusively? I ask because I’m in that situation. I think my end goal is going to be a rotational forearm mechanic. I’d love to own any Eric Johnson phrase. Before I heard Brad Paisley, Eric was easily my favorite electric guitarist. I think I’m on the right track with the forearm thing (I should post another clip in case I’m wrong haha) but I do credit the progress I feel to the comparison I can now draw from the fast elbow mechanic.

Again just curious! If there’s no real reason you have for doing wrist, just stick with what’s working for you and there’s no detour! There are of course exceptions but plenty of the amazing players that are the subject of Troy’s studies just have one mechanic that they’re amazing at, and that’s good enough for them!

Yeah I know what you mean. When the elbow first clicked for me I couldn’t engage it unless I was over 200 bpm. It felt pretty useless because that was way faster than my left hand can keep up. But, once I got used to it I could slow it down to speeds that were more manageable. I’d say try some different speeds out, but keep going with the fastest you can so you never lose reference of what you’re shred mechanic should feel like.

1 Like

Honestly the reason is this: all of my guitar heroes seem to be wrist pickers (Adrian Smith, Dave Murray, Glenn Tipton, Alex Lifeson, Adam D, Jeff Ling - I don’t see any of these dudes using elbow).

Additionally, I have a younger brother (he’s 40) that can shred like the devil. He’s a wrist picker. I’m close to my brother. We have the same genes. :slight_smile: So I figure if HE can do it, I should be able to too.

Those may very well be weak reasons, but honestly that’s why.

This is very helpful to read! I’ll keep working on controlling the elbow motion.

Interestingly enough, I think I hit shred speed last night with a wrist motion…but it was completely trapped. As soon as I tried to slightly supinate it (for USX), it was gone. Same thing with pronation. It was really weird. I was just trying to use a wrist motion, go fast and was speed limited (as usual). Suddenly, for reasons unknown, I burst into a much faster speed for 1-2 seconds. Then it was gone!

Maybe just a muscle spasm. :grin:

1 Like

I’ve never studied any of their mechanics. I’m curious if they’re wrist USX or DSX. If you’d like to play their stuff, it makes sense you need a strategy that gives you the same escape they are getting. BUT, if all or any of them happen to be DSX, you could totally play it with an elbow mechanic. All that said, there are probably plenty who would argue with me, but I feel like wrist is probably the most versatile of all the mechanics. It can do any escape. Maybe, if I get my left hand to get up to speed with my elbow mechanic, then finally make a breakthrough with the rotational forearm USX thing I’ve got on the backburner, I’ll give wrist a try.

Sounds like the randomness I’ve heard Troy talk about when learning a new motion. I’d think this is a good sign. Keep up the good work, buddy!

Hey! @Tommo and I were just going through previous technique critique threads and talking about notable examples of common issues. This idea of switching your form and unlocking a fast / smooth motion is super common and what you’re doing here is an excellent example of that.

One thing I just wanted to point out here is that your arm and wrist are not “locked”. You can see very clearly in this clip that the motion at the elbow joint is much smaller than the motion the pick is actually making. So the elbow is not causing all that motion. The hand is also moving back and forth, which is wrist motion. In fact, to me it looks like the greater share of the motion is actually coming from wrist joint action, not elbow joint action.

You may simply be more aware of the elbow component because you’re tensing stuff in the upper arm. It sounds like you may have had some breakthroughs with the tension aspect already. How are you making out with this since in the interim?

2 Likes

Thanks for following up with me!

Since this thread went quiet, I’ve continued to work diligently on my picking techniques. COVID certainly has helped with that. I’m blessed to be working from home now and that means I can pick up my guitar in between calls/video conferences.

It has been on my mind recently to record some new videos for further feedback. Hopefully over the holidays I can get that done.

Bottom line is, I’ve made progress. Have I reached my goal of USX wrist motion using angle pad grip? Nope. It’s elusive.

But:

I’ve worked on elbow motion tremolo and can do that much faster and more fluid (with less fatigue and for longer periods of time). But I don’t have the control to switch strings with that motion.

I can now reach shred speeds using a trigger grip, wrist motion! But often my pick strokes are trapped. USX is inconsistent. Downward pick slant is challenging.

Every once in a while, I feel like I’m approaching shred speed with an angle pad grip, wrist motion. It comes and goes.

In conclusion, I’m battling a 34 year old habit. I was a forearm, wrist, elbow hybrid string hopper for all of those years. The Pickslanting Primer, with this forum’s assistance has brought tremendous self-awareness. I know know what USX is, what wrist motion is, etc. and knowing is half the battle.

I’m now a much more articulate picker. It’s hard to describe in words, but picking now feels different. It feels better. But perhaps that’s just the awareness kicking in.

For three months now, I focused a LOT of time on just picking motion. Two weeks ago I decided to spend some time on Eric Johnson’s five note lick. But then I saw a thread in this forum that made me question that leap. It seems like a single string lick is the more logical next step, so two days ago I started on YJM’s six note lick. Honestly that seems more like an exercise in hand synchronization than picking technique, but since I can’t do it well - it’s worth working on! And I understand the importance of playing a single string lick fast to understand what that speed feels like.

Well that’s a lot more than I intended to type. I hope everyone is doing well!

2 Likes

Thanks for all the details - very interesting. If you can film an update on the progress with the faster motion, that would be interesting to see. Also, we’re working on some lesson updates to the Primer where we’d like to include some real-world examples that new players can look at to know what to expect. The two motions you have here, where the one is obviously working great, would be very instructive for a new player to look at to know how to discern the difference between a motion where something isn’t working, and one that has lots of potential. If you’d be open to letting us use a snippet of these clips, that would be cool. Let us know — but no pressure. Totally fine if not.

Why do you have such a specific goal of using a certain type of escape motion with a certain type of pick grip? Unless you’re auditioning for a Gypsy band, it really shouldn’t matter which specific technique you use. If we have somehow implied that USX is “better”, that’s defintely not the case. Most virtuoso wrist players, and that includes some of the best pickers of all time, like Di Meola and McLaughlin, look more like your motion. Andy Wood’s technique is broadly similar to the form you’re using here, and he doesn’t do USX motion either. The dude can pretty much alternate pick anything. So you’re on the right track here!

Picking motion includes fretting. Weird to say that, but it is in some sense true. I never worked on just the picking hand by itself, like on all open strings, for example. There were no phrases I wanted to learn which worked that way, so it never even occurred to me to do that. As a result if I had to learn a phrase like that, I’d actually have to work on it. I’m much better when both hands are moving, since that’s what I know.

When you’re learning a new physical skill, what you’re learning is the sum total of all motions happening at that time. This is how I think of it. The actual way this works is probably more complex, and there is probably overlapping benefit to doing hands separately, together, and in various combinations. But just as an example of what I’m talking about, it is absolutely commonplace that you can have a picking pattern perfectly on one phrase, and then switch to another phrase with a different fretting hand but identical picking pattern, and you can’t play it. Happens all the time. Either fretting errors, picking errors, or synch errors crop up. So to some very practical extent, your picking technique is really the sum total of all the picking patterns you know, combined with all common fretting patterns, at different speeds and rhythms, learned and corrected over the long haul until they all overlap a little and enhance each other.

This is my very long-winded way of saying, you should not work on just picking motions. You need to work on a wide array of picking and fretting patterns with coordinated hands. To start with, the phrases you choose should match your picking motion. In your case that’s DSX motion. So the EJ five note pattern is not a great example because you need USX and downstroke sweeping for that. Instead, you want to choose phrases where downstrokes are consistently the final note on every string. Of couse single-string playing is fine too. Diversity helps. All these things overlap. But just choose single-escape (or mostly single escape) phrases to start, since that is what your motion does. Over time you can always incorporate other phrase types. That is the beauty of wrist motion. It can do all escapes from one arm position.

1 Like