Just isn't "clicking" for me yet

[joebegly]

@Rivethead

Regarding fast motion…the only motion that’s ever got me into the shred motion is elbow motion. But it just feels so rigid and uncontrollable I can’t see how that could be a regular, useable motion. Yes, it gets me to the speed zone and maybe that’s enough to get the feel…

I feel you here…I felt the same way when Troy advised me to just go all out with an elbow motion. It felt too fast for me and I couldn’t fathom it being usable. Check this out (first clip labeled tremolo only):

Petrucci Exercise

Hey @Troy here are some clips I filmed earlier today. Tremolo only: [tremolo] Lydian DSX circular phrase: [Joe Lydian] I was struggling to get good takes on that one today. I think if I had a magnet instead of my wife standing in front of me holding her phone I could probably do better lol Can’t wait for my magnet order to get filled and shipped (December-ish still, right???) Anyway that’s where things are. I think it’s promising compared to the thing I was doing ea…

I still haven’t tamed it (getting closer though!), but it’s something I’m refining and what’s really important is that it’s fast and smooth. The last day or so, prompted from your very thread, I felt compelled to try some rotational USX stuff out. That really is the end game for me. I probably should post a video to make sure I’m not wrong again lol! But the ‘feeling’ I get when I’m gunning that fast elbow tremolo is what I think I can get going in my attempts at this rotational USX thing now. If I never would have gone through procedure of just going with the elbow, I wouldn’t really know what smoothness felt like at the fast speeds. In other words, knowing what fast/smooth feels is worth its weight in gold if you’ve never felt it before. It will transfer.

One thing last thing I’d mention about an elbow mechanic is that if you feel tensed up/fatigued and you’re only at the 150 bpm range, just try lightening up on your pick grip, and BTW experiment with some different pick grips too. This mechanic can have some tension when it’s all out. This doesn’t look tension free to me:

Rusty Cooley Code Archive - Lydian 6-Note Motif

It is still controlled though. And even still, this is much faster than you or I will be playing most likely So we mortals can manage this motion at ‘our’ speeds tension free, no problem.

Sorry for the TLDR quality of…everything I write. Try out elbow if you’ve seen some speed with it! Just some short bursts, tweaking the variables until it feels like you can play an even tremolo with it. I’d target 150 - 170 bmp. Anything less than this runs you the risk of a motion that isn’t efficient.

[Rivethead]

Thanks for the response! Your tremolo video is the motion that I’ve had the most success with too. Only difference is that I seem to go faster/smoother when I use a trigger grip. I will try to get some of video of that.

With the Rusty Cooley video…it looks to me like he’s actually blending wrist and elbow motions. I could be wrong. But that’s interesting - I hadn’t seen that video before.

[joebegly]

@Rivethead

Only difference is that I seem to go faster/smoother when I use a trigger grip.

This is great to hear!!! In my critique video I just happened to be doing the side pad grip, since that’s what I’ve always used… I’ve since experimented with a trigger grip – Rusty is using a trigger grip I think. Sometimes it feels ok to me, sometimes I feel like I relinquish control. At the end of the day, it’s probably personal. The fact that you’re doing a new motion and already playing with variables and ‘feeling’ different results should be very encouraging to you. Keep up the great work my friend!

@Rivethead

With the Rusty Cooley video…it looks to me like he’s actually blending wrist and elbow motions. I could be wrong.

Hmmm interesting. I watched the fast parts in the ‘onlooker’ (i.e. non-magnet) view in super slow-mo and it does look like his wrist has a little wiggle at times. Neat. Either way, definitely elbow is what’s driving this speed

[DLoVe]

Hey Rivethead, I thought I’d share my homemade magnet with you:

You can find the clamp and the 3M velcro strips at any decent hardware store. The piece of wood is a section of a paint stirring stick and everything is held together with Gorilla Glue(I added a little to the adhesive backs of the velcro strips too just to be a little extra careful). The trickiest thing about it as it’s currently designed is finding the sweet spot in terms of tightening the clamp to the neck. This is due to the small amount of surface contact on the red circular part of the clamp along with the fact that tightening it involves rotation and that means that when it starts to contact the neck but isn’t yet tight you have to keep rotating and that can cause it to move. Ya gotta wannit! If you can find a clamp that doesn’t rely on a rotational mechanic to tighten you might be better off. Hope that helps!

[Johannes]

@Yaakov

But it didn’t seem to me that any of the anatomical categories in the Primer were meant to be stand-alone - rather, you’ve got to combine two or more motions. At least that’s what I thought.

@Yaakov

Isn’t one of the axioms of CTC that fast motion is virtually always a blended motion…?

This is a misunderstanding. You can certainly use only elbow, or wrist. Forearm gets a little tricky but there are examples of strictly forearm players as well. Of course, you sometimes need to use some other joint to get string tracking.

[Johannes]

Lots of great responses in the thread. I’d just like to add that the motions in your two videos look more or less identical. In other words, the change in grip does not seem to change the motion. And since you’re looking for a faster, smoother motion, you need to change something else! Try different anchor points, different angles, different picks and so on until you find something that works.

Also, and this may have been mentioned already, I know you said that your goal is to develop a fluid wrist motion. But don’t close the door on the other motions just yet! Chances are you already have a fast, smooth motion that you can use to get some fast phrases going. This will at least give you a feel for fast playing. You can always go back and work on wrist only if you want to.

[Rivethead]

That’s really clever! Thanks for sharing. I’ve got some ideas I’m going to try as well.

[Rivethead]

@Johannes

And since you’re looking for a faster, smoother motion, you need to change something else! Try different anchor points, different angles, different picks and so on until you find something that works.

I came to similar conclusion last night. I realized that yes - I’ve been trying this stuff for weeks but really just keep doing the SAME thing every night and hoping for a different conclusion. That’s madness.

So this weekend I’m going to try a different pick and I’m also going to stand up and use various strap lengths (so the guitar will hang at different levels).

The thing that made me realize this is: tension. Tension is our body’s way of saying: “this isn’t working”. I’ve spent too much time trying to just brute force my way through tension.

Thanks for your reply!

[tommo]

Hey @Rivethead, I’m a bit late to the party and I see you have got many good replies already!

At the risk of repeating what has already been said, from the two videos you posted it’s hard to tell whether you are doing USX correctly. This is because the speed is low enough that you coulg get away with inefficient motions, and also because the filming angle doesn’t let us see very well the interaction between pick & strings.

I see @joebegly already gave you a link to the filming instructions, so that bit is sorted

The most logical next step is to record a tremolo on a single string with a “down the strings” perspective, possibly both at real speed and in slow motion (if your phone does it). Just pick a single note fast for a few seconds, and we’ll take a look!

[Rivethead]

@tommo

The most logical next step is to record a tremolo on a single string with a “down the strings” perspective, possibly both at real speed and in slow motion (if your phone does it). Just pick a single note fast for a few seconds, and we’ll take a look

Thanks for the reply! I plan to do this - hopefully this weekend. I’ve been messing around with home-made magnet ideas and I think I’ve come up with something that will work. It involves a Go-Pro, a large rubber band (originally zip ties) and a brass nut…

For everyone following this thread, I continue to test and explore wrist motions. Still haven’t found “it” yet, but I’m not discouraged. I feel like I’m making progress. A few things I’ve learned:

1. Picks wear down. I tried some wrist motions with various picks I had on hand, just to see if different picks would help me unlock a motion. When I went back to my trusty Jazz III, I picked up a NEW one rather than the one I had been using for…well so long I can’t remember. And that (a new pick) made a big difference in the “feel” of my picking/motions.

2. Wrist motions that were originally awkward aren’t so awkward anymore. I still haven’t found a wrist motion that gets me into the shred zone but I feel like I’m getting closer. But…

3. Any amount of supination instantly slows me down. I think this is because I have a natural tendency to want to use elbow motion and a DSX path. The moment I rotate my forearm for downward pickslant…it feels like slamming on the brakes. Don’t know if that’s physical, mental, or both.

4. The only motions that have allowed me into the shred zone are an elbow motion with DSX path (using trigger grip…I can’t quit get there with my usual side-pad grip) and, one time, a forearm rotation/gypsy thing with the wrist flexed to the max and tons of edge picking)

5. I still don’t understand how finding a fast motion, any motion, is the first step in developing a usable USX wrist motion…the whole “filling in a crossword puzzle” analogy.

I know the above isn’t so helpful without video. I hope capture down-the-strings views of the motions I can do as well as my current USX wrist motion (which I feel like is better and faster than what I’m doing in the videos I previously posted).

Regardless, I want to thank everyone again for all of your advice and support within this thread and others…

[Rivethead]

Here is a down-the-strings view of my most comfortable picking position (side-pad):

down the neck trial

I know this isn’t shred speed. My goal is to make it to shred speed with this grip. I’m not sure if this video helps at all, but it was a good trial to see if my homemade magnet would work. If you see anything worthy of a comment from this, please share.

And here’s the same video, trigger grip with me getting to what I think might be shred zone. This is elbow motion, but people have asked if I can do any fast motion…well here’s what I can do:

dtn trigger fast

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer. I feel like my next steps are to continue searching for a fast motion and trying to video tape it if/when I find something.

[Thegent]

This last video shows a perfectly good fast motion. It looks like DSX. Build on this.

[joebegly]

Agreed. For now, just for now, put the other motion on the back burner. The quickest way you’ll get that one faster is to embrace what you’re already fast with. From there you will get a reference point. Welcome to the elbow club!

[tommo]

Yeah! Second video for the win, indeed a DSX motion. Your next steps could be:

• Using this motion for some fast licks on a single string, trying to sync up left and right hand.
• Using this motion with licks that only change strings after downstrokes.

Let us know how that goes

About the first motion, I am not 100% sure but it may well be string hopping. If you can’t do it faster than what you show in the first video, chances are this motion is inefficient and speed-limited, no matter how long you keep hammering at it.

[Rivethead]

Thanks all for the replies!

I cannot really “control” that elbow/DSX motion. It’s simply me locking my wrist/forearm (with tension) into an iron bar (a description I’ve heard Ben Higgins use…which seems to perfectly describe mine).

In addition to not being able to control it…it burns up my forearms after about a minute. Fortunately, I don’t think it’s unnatural pain…it’s the lactic acid build up in the muscle type of pain.

Does this sound familiar to other elbow-users? Does anyone have suggestions on how to develop “control” over this? When I try to slow elbow motion down, my mind/body wants to immediately switch back to wrist. It’s a real battle and everything falls apart.

I keep re-watching my down-the-strings wrist motion video and it really looks to me that I’m using DBX motion (string hoping) - despite my intent not to! But maybe I’m just seeing things that explain why I can’t go faster…

[joebegly]

@Rivethead

I cannot really “control” that elbow/DSX motion

I think I responded the same way when Troy suggested to me I capitalize on my elbow mechanic. I know how you feel!

@Rivethead

It’s simply me locking my wrist/forearm (with tension) into an iron bar (a description I’ve heard Ben Higgins use…which seems to perfectly describe mine).
…

In addition to not being able to control it…it burns up my forearms after about a minute. Fortunately, I don’t think it’s unnatural pain…it’s the lactic acid build up in the muscle type of pain.

I think like all things, it’s better “in the middle” This sounds like one end of the tension spectrum, where a totally relaxed mushy loose hold/attack is the other. There’s got to be somewhere between those 2 extremes. When I do elbow mechanic I feel some tension. I don’t feel like I’ve turned my arm into an iron bar though. I’m also not holding the pick with a death grip. It’s possible to shake someone’s hand firmly without being one of those alpha-male jerks that’s trying to inflict pain on the other person, right? Same thing here.

@Rivethead

When I try to slow elbow motion down, my mind/body wants to immediately switch back to wrist. It’s a real battle and everything falls apart.

Maybe instead of ‘slow down’, we need to just ‘ease up’ a little? Back to the table tap thing…if you knock on a table with the ulnar side of the hand making the contact, with a firm wrist and your elbow driving the motion with 8th notes around 150 bmp does that feel exactly like your picking movement? When I do that it doesn’t feel stressful. I could do that for 30 seconds no problem, no lactic acid build up. That’s the same movement you want, more or less, for an elbow mechanic tremolo.

Lastly, in addition to not gripping too tightly, I’m also trying to make sure my pick depth isn’t too deep and I’m trying to constantly rest stroke on the string directly above the one I’m picking (positionally, as we are DSX). If you use too much pick, you may feel stuck and try to make up for this with even more tension. That pick should glide right through the string in both directions.

@Rivethead

I keep re-watching my down-the-strings wrist motion video and it really looks to me that I’m using DBX motion (string hoping) - despite my intent not to! But maybe I’m just seeing things that explain why I can’t go faster…

Possibly! @tommo mentioned he thought that may be string hopping. When I first watched it, I thought so too but didn’t even mention it because I thought your faster motion seemed much more promising, near term. It’s a bit of a detour (if you really want to play USX wrist motion as your endgame goal) to get this elbow thing working but I really think once you embrace/tame it that you’ll know what fast and smooth feels like. Sounds to me overall like you’ve got the fast part, we just need to work on making it feel smooth. That’s where the excess tension you’re feeling could be throwing a wrench into this whole thing. Sorry that was so long! I have a hard time speaking concisely, working on it…

[joebegly]

Hey sorry to spam you @Rivethead but I thought of something else that may help you. Change up picks or pick grips too! You’ve got something that’s partially working in terms of speed, just not control. Good luck and keep up the good work!

[Rivethead]

@joebegly

if you knock on a table with the ulnar side of the hand making the contact, with a firm wrist and your elbow driving the motion with 8th notes around 150 bmp does that feel exactly like your picking movement? When I do that it doesn’t feel stressful. I could do that for 30 seconds no problem, no lactic acid build up. That’s the same movement you want, more or less, for an elbow mechanic tremolo.

Yes, I think understand. Last night I backed off the aggressiveness (I’m not sure that’s the right adjective here) and with elbow motion and trigger grip got a very fast fluid motion that continued for a long time. Honestly, it felt like I could have kept going for hours…there wasn’t much stress or tension in the biceps or triceps working the elbow motion. The wrist/forearm was still locked into the iron bar, but I think the key was I backed off on the amount of pressure on the pick. And…I wasn’t video taping it. I think taping yourself adds some stress…or maybe that’s just me. +

@joebegly

I’m trying to constantly rest stroke on the string directly above the one I’m picking (positionally, as we are DSX). If you use too much pick, you may feel stuck and try to make up for this with even more tension. That pick should glide right through the string in both directions.

I feel like my pick depth is just right. But I’m having a hard time with the rest stroke thing. For decades, I’ve played by the belief that I should keep the pick as close to the string as possible. I’m finding it hard to give that extra effort to push the pick a little further into the next sting. But I’ll keep working on it.

@joebegly

It’s a bit of a detour (if you really want to play USX wrist motion as your endgame goal) to get this elbow thing working but I really think once you embrace/tame it that you’ll know what fast and smooth feels like.

I’m willing to do it if it gets me to my end goal of fast, fluid wrist motion. But man does it feel like more than a detour. It felt like I started over! I tried to work on an ascending run that I’m familiar with. It’s best suited for USX as the string changes are on upstrokes, so I flipped it around and started the run with an upstroke. It was really hard for me to slow it down enough to sync the left hand AND use elbow motion. My mind/body immediately want to revert to wrist motion at those slower speeds. It took a surprising amount of mental focus to keep using that elbow.

I think I bit off too much at once. I think maybe I should try just playing one note on one string at a slower speed. With my elbow motion, there’s no speed control (that’s mostly what I mean by “no control”). It’s either “ON” at full speed, or “OFF”. I think maybe I should try to use the elbow motion slower and then be able to accelerate to my fast speed. Once I have speed control, then I think I should find a completely new riff to work on. Probably a McLaughlin riff from the Pickslanting Primer.

Does that make any sense?

To be honest, I’m still not sure I understand the long-term goal of using elbow motion. Is it just to experience fast fluid picking motion? If it is, I don’t see how this leads to finding a useable wrist motion. I know Troy has used a crossword puzzle analogy and that certainly seems logical. But once my mind/body find and get used to a fast fluid elbow motion, does it just “know” what to do to get the wrist to do the same thing?

@joebegly

Sorry that was so long!

No apology necessary. I truly appreciate the time you took to make a detailed and helpful post!

[Rivethead]

@joebegly

Hey sorry to spam you @Rivethead but I thought of something else that may help you. Change up picks or pick grips too! You’ve got something that’s partially working in terms of speed, just not control. Good luck and keep up the good work!

Will do. I did spend some time trying elbow motion with my more familiar side-pad grip. Initial results were encouraging. It’s not as fluid or even sounding as when I use trigger grip, but I think I can get it there.

[joebegly]

@Rivethead

I’m willing to do it if it gets me to my end goal of fast, fluid wrist motion. But man does it feel like more than a detour. It felt like I started over!

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you’re set on doing a wrist motion? Certain songs/licks you’d like to play that would be a pain if you were going to do DSX exclusively? I ask because I’m in that situation. I think my end goal is going to be a rotational forearm mechanic. I’d love to own any Eric Johnson phrase. Before I heard Brad Paisley, Eric was easily my favorite electric guitarist. I think I’m on the right track with the forearm thing (I should post another clip in case I’m wrong haha) but I do credit the progress I feel to the comparison I can now draw from the fast elbow mechanic.

Again just curious! If there’s no real reason you have for doing wrist, just stick with what’s working for you and there’s no detour! There are of course exceptions but plenty of the amazing players that are the subject of Troy’s studies just have one mechanic that they’re amazing at, and that’s good enough for them!

@Rivethead

It’s either “ON” at full speed, or “OFF”. I think maybe I should try to use the elbow motion slower and then be able to accelerate to my fast speed. Once I have speed control, then I think I should find a completely new riff to work on. Probably a McLaughlin riff from the Pickslanting Primer.

Yeah I know what you mean. When the elbow first clicked for me I couldn’t engage it unless I was over 200 bpm. It felt pretty useless because that was way faster than my left hand can keep up. But, once I got used to it I could slow it down to speeds that were more manageable. I’d say try some different speeds out, but keep going with the fastest you can so you never lose reference of what you’re shred mechanic should feel like.