Kou's picking thread

[kounistou]

Hey everyone,

I finally borrowed a decent phone to film myself playing and allow CtC’s community of experts to analyze my technique!

So without further due, here are some videos of my different picking techniques and a little description of my struggles with each one of them.

Picking:

This video has three parts:

• one string DWPS (or what seems to me like DWPS): I can do this comfortably but I can’t get any faster without the pick starting to get “stuck”
• one string UWPS: this is where I am comfortable the most and can achieve a controlled faster picking.
• one string faster UWPS: not sure if this is really faster than the second type (I wouldn’t call it hyper picking because I am nowhere near that territory). But here I have a more tense arm and I can’t sustain it for a long time. Doing this kind of picking over multiple strings will also sound messy. Not to mention that my left hand probably won’t keep up as well.

2WPS

This is my attempt at descending sixes or what we call here The Pepsi Lick.

My own observations:

• I can get the synchronization going if I keep focusing on that first note of the six notes chunk. So the right hand 2WPS is more or less working for me now.

My issues:

• I feel that the stretches, even though not that big, are slowing me down. You will notice that I can play faster and more accurate above the 12th fret. In general I have a problem with the stretches, even above the 8th fret. They just slow me down. Feedback here is very much appreciated.

I didn’t try to make a clean take but that probably wouldn’t happen anyway. So here are two of my attempts:

UWPS:

This is my attempt at UWPS (Dorian position). I feel that I am quickly loosing synchronization even though I trying to focus on the chunking. Not sure if this is my left hand can’t keep up or because there is still something wrong with my picking.

DWPS:

Here is where I struggle the most. There are days where DWPS sort of works for me, and others where it doesn’t seem to work at all, like today:

In general, I am working on both UWPS, 2WPs and DWPS. Not sure if this is considered good or considered lack of focus.

I think I am making better progress with UWPS. But at the same time, I like to play a lot of pentatonic licks and I’d like to get better at DWPS.

I am looking forward to your feedback, not only concerning the playing but also concerning the setup, the lighting the sound etc. The latter will be helpful for future videos!

Thanks everyone in advance for your feedback!

Cheers \m/

[maciek2002]

I am not Troy, but I just thought that I would leave my feedback too. I generally think that the picking motions and all that stuff is pretty good but I feel like you need to practice everything much slower to really make your articulation, synchronization of the two hands and the general control over your picking hand better. In the last clip you are actually playing an UWPS lick with DWPS so you have to swipe the string changes or use string crossing. That’s why maybe you feel that it’s not exactly clean. If you have any questions about practicing and building speed I highly recommend you asking @milehighshred He an incredible teacher and an amazing player.

[kounistou]

Hi Maciek2002,

thanks a lot for your message!

@maciek2002

I feel like you need to practice everything much slower to really make your articulation, synchronization of the two hands and the general control over your picking hand better

My problem here is, if I slow down too much, I will be using different mechanics. Then articulation won’t be a problem anymore. So I am not sure if that will help me in my faster playing.

But you are right, maybe I should slow down to the point of playing correctly but still fast enough to use my high speed mechanics. Then work my way up from there.

@maciek2002

In the last clip you are actually playing an UWPS lick with DWPS so you have to swipe the string changes or use string crossing.

Not sure what you mean here. I was trying to play ascending and descending pentatonic sixes. Which as far as I know is a typical DWPS lick. Unless I played it so bad that you didn’t recognize it

Again thanks for the feedback !

[maciek2002]

Ahh sorry that’s my bad about the last one. I don’t know what I was thinking about when typing it hehe

[jzdunegan]

I’m going to explain this as best as possible the way @Troy explained it to me. And first of all, I agree with the first replier in that you should practice much slower. DWPS/UWPS according to @Troy pertains to the first or last note for escape purposes. If the first or last note is a downstroke, then DWPS applies, and the same for upstroke picking is UWPS. I understood this much better when I watched the Cascade series with Eric Johnson and he explains about pulling away from the guitar body with an upstroke. This helped me with picking more accurately at higher speeds. In fact, I have been trying desperately to nail a lick that Doug Aldrich does where he does a two string pentatonic lick like this (go to 2:35):

By using UWPS on the upstroke of the sequence helps me with accuracy and I’ve increased tempo on the lick by 15 bpm. Where I could do it cleanly and comfortably at 90 bpm, in one day I increased to 105. I think he is doing the lick around 130 ish or maybe faster. But I’m getting closer.

I also have been working on scale sequences including 10 note scale sequence shifting to 6 note sequence to get me to the octave below and then return to the original area:

I have had great progress since last week when I rejoined CTC! My hope is that my brain and hands will be trained to play with speed and accuracy at will.

[TheCount]

All I’d have to say about this has already been said. I think you underestimate yourself, it’s not a mess by any means! As everyone else here has said, just slow everything down a bit and work on the accuracy of it. The movements are all looking nice. I got speed up with the traditional ‘metronome repetition’ exercises. Still doing them now. I know not everyone agrees with this approach but it HAS worked for me so maybe give that a go.

[kounistou]

Hi all,

I thought that if I post a video describing a specific issue, more people would be willing to give their feedback.

Thanks to the latest CtC live event, I have improved my DWPS a bit (see opening thread for my older video). Coming back to the pentatonic sixes lick, I have noticed that I am feeling more comfortable and faster when descending than when ascending. I find this weird because I assumed ascending would be easier because the weight of my own hand helps me with the string tracking. I also feel that I can get my accents right when descending but not when ascending. Am I not doing strict DWPS? Can somebody help me figure out what’s going on?

Here is some practice footage.

Looking forward to your feedback!

[Troy]

Here is some practice footage.

This looks great to me!

What you’re pointing out with the difference in feel between the descending and ascending versions of this lick has been mentioned before by others here. Specifically, others have said that they find the descending version of this lick easier because it’s “outside picking”. There has been some back and forth on this, and I think what we can say simply is that if there is a difference, it’s small and subject to a number of factors. There are definitely players who find the “inside” version of this lick easier.

So bottom line, I would worry about it too much. In this clip, only the first repetition looks different. You’ll notice it has more forearm involvement. The descending has much less, and so do the subsequent ascending ones. They’re both mostly wrist. So you’re already moving closer together on this and it’s probably just a matter of time. Whatever you’re doing, it’s working!

The problem spots here are minor and more related to either string tracking or hand synchronization. They also happen in the same spots every time - like the last part of the phrase with the octave string skip. That’s another good sign things are converging.

If you slow these clips down you’ll see these little rough edges and it will help you focus on where the problems might be. Everyone says “use your ears” but it’s not always so easy to hear or feel exactly what’s wrong at anything beyond moderate speeds. And continually repeating these little erros is just going to make them permanent.

Fyi your audio is out of sync by ten frames or so. That’s enough to make it hard to tell which pickstroke goes with which note when you slow it down. What are you using to film this with?

[kounistou]

Hi Troy,

Thank you very much for this valuable feedback. This is really encouraging.

So bottom line, I would worry about it too much.

You meant that I shouldn’t worry about it right?

What are you using to film this with?

I am using the front camera (selfie camera) of my new quite recent mid-range phone. It’s a honor 9 (can we say that? Feel free to remove the mention). I was using the front camera because it was easier to find the right CtC approved angle. But now I realize that the gap in features and capabilities between the two cameras is not worth it. Besides, it wasn’t that hard in the end to find a good angle after a couple of tries. So I made a quick test with the back camera and the result was amazing! This one can do 1080p @ 60fps, can do slo-mo and can even do 4k. I will wait for the proper lighting and post a new video here ASAP!

Again, thanks!

[tommo]

Specifically, others have said that they find the descending version of this lick easier because it’s “outside picking”. There has been some back and forth on this, and I think what we can say simply is that if there is a difference, it’s small and subject to a number of factors.

This is the case also for me with ascending DWPS, and it may be due to having the string tracking and picking motion somewhat interfering with each other. As you mentioned in another topic, if one fully decouples tracking & picking (idealised example: pure wrist picking + pure elbow tracking) then the two directions may become pretty much equivalent.

Out of curiosity @Troy: if you take something like Yngwie 6s across all 6 strings, do you max out at exactly the same speed ascending/descending? Do they feel exactly the same to you? For me the descending 6s “play themselves”, the ascending ones are a bit more hard work.

[Gtrjunior]

I’m also curious about your 6’s question. I feel the same way as you. The descending is soooo much easier and more accurate than the ascending. Which conversely is sloppy and inaccurate as all hell. Lol
I also find that I tend to use uwps descending and dwps when ascending. Maybe that has something to do with the sloppiness…?

[tommo]

I also find that I tend to use uwps descending and dwps when ascending.

Interesting, for these one-way pickslanting licks I prefer UWPS when ascending (starting with upstroke) and DWPS when descending (starting with downstroke). This way it’s always “outside” picking and I feel the string tracking takes care of itself. With two-way pickslanting things get more complicated and depending on the lick I may prefer inside or outside.

@kounistou have you tried ascending the pentatonic scale with UWPS starting with an upstroke? how does that feel?

[theGuyFromGermany]

I don’t like DWPS on ascending too.
My interpretation is that the downstroke and the stringtrack are basically the same motion.
In my case the result is that I miss the first stroke and do a reststroke instead - that’s probably based on that it feels like a sweep to me.
I guess the reason that he makes a bigger motion on ascending is that he tries to force a ‘real’ pickstroke, which is probably based on the same thing, the ascending version feels a little like removing the downstroke.

The descending version has the pickstroke against the tracking direction and therefor needs two articulated pickstrokes and stringtracking, which probably happens more or less unconcious for most of us.

In other words DWPS with ascending patterns requires to ‘learn’ the efficiency and depending on the style you played before that can feel strange.
And as Troy mentioned before, thats prbably a good sign.

[kounistou]

Thank you all for the feedback!

@kounistou have you tried ascending the pentatonic scale with UWPS starting with an upstroke? how does that feel?

I have tried it quickly after your suggestion. While it looks promising, I prefer not to invest time in it and keep working on the DWPS version for these reasons:

• Muting: It’s a muting nightmare!
• Accents and hand synchronization: at this stage, I still feel the need to use that first down stroke as the accent to help me improve my synchronization. If I switch that to the first upstroke, it’s a bit confusing for me.
• Tone: I think the attack of the first down stroke with DWPS is what makes this lick sound so unique to me. And this is why I want to nail it (and it’s why I like this style in general). The very few times times it kind of worked with UWPS, it sounded “too smooth”. Which is fine if that’s what you want, but that’s not the sound I am looking for.
• Lower strings access: when doing UPWS (at least with my technique), I almost have no contact with the guitar when playing the lower E and A. This leaves a lot of room for error. Add to that starting with up stroke, the whole thing feels very unnatural to me.

@theGuyFromGermany interesting analysis. I am starting to accept that while DWPS is very efficient, the mechanics are a bit less efficient when the next string is higher (sweeping licks excluded). I went back to the lick with that in mind and I think I am starting to incorporate this in my playing.

Will practice a bit more and come back with a video. Stay tuned!

Cheers \m/

[kounistou]

Hi all,

I could not resist making a graphical presentation of what I believe to be the problem

This how I see the problem:

• When descending, hitting the next string is as easy as laying the pick down. That is why it feels way easier in my opinion.
• When ascending: while you are clearly not stuck between the strings thanks to DWPS, you are much further away from your next target. And this might require an extra movement.

In the last scenario, a less pronounced up stroke helped me a bit. Still trying to get used to it. But seems to me like the way to go.

PS: This is not what I should be doing at the office

EDIT:

I found a video that clearly illustrates the differences from this really cool Youtube Channel:

Eric Johnson: Pickslanting Pentatonics

[theGuyFromGermany]

When ascending: while you are clearly not stuck between the strings thanks to DWPS, you are much further away from your next target. And this might require an extra movement.

No, thats just what your hand tells you. There’s no need to move the pick further away, the longer distance is the result of two executed motions while only one is needed - at least that’s my guess.
Play an even number of notes on a single string (without thinking of switching) and stop then - look where the pick is and where it should go.
If for you happens the same as for me you are in a ‘neutral’ position.
Now with your mind in ‘alternate’ mode you move the pick to the next string and make a downstroke, that causes the big motion.
With your mind in economy/sweep mode you just move the pick down and push it through, that does not feel like alternate (at least not for me) but that’s all you need.

That’s what i meant before: tracking and downstrokes melt together when ascending, to me it’s more tracking than picking and that makes it feel strange.

Anyway I wouldn’t worry too much (eventhough it’s good to prevent practicing errors).
Your progress so far looks pretty good and it’s just natural that it takes time until a new motion is stored and feels good.

[tommo]

With your mind in economy/sweep mode you just move the pick down and push it through, that does not feel like alternate (at least not for me) but that’s all you need.

If I understood correctly, I think you guys may be talking about different situations (alternate VS sweeped string changes). I believe Konistou was talking about the difficulty of ascending with pure alternate picking (and DWPS).

I should add to the discussion that, having been a primary UWPS player for many years (without knowing), I feel a smaller difference between inside/outisde picking when using UWPS. But I also noticed that with UWPS the downstroke does not travel very far away from the strings (as the upstroke does with DWPS) - this may be part of the equation.

[theGuyFromGermany]

No that’s not what we talking about - ok at least not what i meant

It’s about the string change while alternating.
If that string change is in the direction of the slant it feels for me the same as a sweep motion while it IS actually an alternated pickstroke.
My guess is that he feels the same and therefor makes one unneeded motion which causes a bigger stroke and a strange feeling.
It seems that ‘starnge’ feeling doesn’t happen to everybody, probably it depends on using economy before, I did not and dont’t have it really in the reportoire yet.

[kounistou]

What’s up fellow coders!

I am posting an update on my progress.

So lately I have been allocating some time to work on the problematic (for me) ascending version of the pentatonic sixes. I have been trying to implement the “not too high” upstroke that I explained in my diagram further up this thread. It felt weird in the beginning but it is starting to feel natural.

Here is some raw practice footage (I think this time it’s in proper 1080p 60fps, so the Youtube slo-mo feature should work with this). Not all attempts are keepers. But I have moments where I feel it’s working. Here, judge by yourselves:

With proper warmup, I can be much more consistent. Besides, this “new technique” is just starting to work for me. So, I guess I need more practice. But I am hoping for your feedback guys to know that I am in the right direction.

My first concern with this is, by avoiding to allow the up strokes to fly up too much, sometimes I just sweep to the next string as @theGuyFromGermany mentioned. Other times, it results in unintentional swiping since I don’t get away from the stings too much. But as I said, I feel that more practice will help me clean this up. Thoughts?

My second concern is, as I get faster with this lick, the notes start to sound more muted. Is this a natural? Or is my poor synchronization causing the muting? I just hope I am not learning a new bad habit.

Cheers \m/

[tommo]

For what it’s worth, it seems to me you are making great progress! The speed is definitely there, so I think that if you keep practicing this lick at various tempos (fast, slow and medium) you’ll gradually clean it up.