Mod a Squier - or start a "Dream Fender" piggy bank?

I’m still playing inexpensive guitars, but am hoping to upgrade. I like the Strat best, but since $1500+ is a bit much for me (especially if I end up with several) I thought I’d just modify my Squier. I’m fairly handy (do my own set-ups with decent results), and since I’ve read about touring pros just popping new PUs into a cheap guitar, I thought that’s the way I’d go. (I don’t use the whammy; decked my trem, so that’s not an issue for me.)

What’s giving me second thoughts is the neck. Even if I swap out the tuning machines, nothing’s going to turn a merely passable Squier neck into a truly dependable part. Squier does a pretty good job with frets (though I imagine they wear faster; can’t be the best metal at Squier prices), but a neck with a touch of twist and a so-so truss rod is, at the end of the day, just okay, not great.

Still, it would be a heck of a lot cheaper to mod! Is the superiority of an American Fender neck, particularly in terms of intonation, worth the expense? Or is the drop-off in tuning stability so slight that’s it’s livable?

IS your neck a neck with a touch of twist and a so-so truss rod? If so, then absolutely, start saving for an upgrade (or consider alternatives - a Warmoth replacement neck might go a long way here, for example). But, I’ve played a number of Squiers that really were, at the end of the day, pretty good - my go-to bass, in fact, is a Squier P-Bass with J-Bass electronics, and while it’s hardly an impressive one, it won out over a Dingwall Afterburner because I just liked how it sounded in a mix better.

Also, there’s a ton of used Strats out there too. Don’t be afraid to - well, I mean, after Covid, right now absolutely be afraid to, but at some point in the future don’t be afraid to - poke around in the used section of a music shop and see if you find something there you gel with.

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Having a neck you love is key here. I have played some great squires with p/u upgrades…but the neck has to be great…which subjective for sure.

Start a dream fender piggy bank. I did and bought an American Standard telecaster second hand and have since acquired an American elite strat. I have never looked back. They sound lovely and every time I pick them up it gives me a thrill.
You won’t regret it :slightly_smiling_face:

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I don’t have instruments precise enough to say. But from the quality of the blank to the machining and other materials, I would just assume that a Squier neck isn’t going to be as stable as a more expensive one. I don’t have the frame of reference to know if it’s that big a deal, is what I’m saying, since I don’t have American Strats to compare it to.

Have you played American Strats, though, to compare it to? Or Mexican or Japanese Strats?

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a “nicer” or “fancier” guitar, by any means. But guitar necks don’t just randomly warp or twist, and at the end of the day while there’s some variation in direction of cut and quality of neck blank, even a bare bones Squier neck is going to be decent enough, these days, and some of the ones I’ve played have actually been rather nice.

And, I mean, if you need an instrument to measure to tell if it’s twisted or warped… then, it’s almost certainly not twisted or warped.

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Gotta admit that I haven’t played enough decent guitars to really know; this is all imagination so far. But that said, there are clearly lots of reasons why a choice new Fender is $1500-1800 and a Squier is like $150 - and the neck’s got to be one of those reasons.

Put another way, I don’t think Fender’s ripping people off at $1500+. Get-what-you-pay-for is a pretty reliable rule.

And sitting down at Sam Ash for an hour or two isn’t necessarily gonna prove anything, either. As far as I can tell, the main issue with cheap necks is stability - which means today it could be find, and then the humidity or temperature changes and the thing’s untunable. Notes that are off by even 2 cents are discernable; more than that is fingernails on the chalkboard.

I’m tired of fine tuning the saddles on the Squier, and then next thing you know it’s back to sounding like - well, a Squier;)

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Kind of sounds like I have my answer, doesn’t it? :wink:

Have you used Warmoth replacement necks? (Wondering if they’re comparable to the quality you’d get from an American Fender…)

What makes you confident of this?

Hollow body instruments are another story, but solid body electrics are essentially simple wooden sculptures that you bolt hardware onto. The main difference you’ll notice between any two necks is the shape its contoured to, and the finish that’s been applied to it. It doesn’t cost $1500 to reshape a rectangular neck blank, drop a truss rod in it, slot a fretboard, glue it on, radius the fretboard, install frets, and apply a finish once your done.

Now, a company might say “we’ve cooked up 15 different setting for contouring necks on our CNC machines. People really seem to like necks contoured with setting 14, so lets charge way more for guitars with that neck”. But that boils down to personal preference.

The presence or absence of reinforcing rods, and the grain of the wood relative to the shape of the neck are the things that will influence “neck stability” the most. In general, quartersawn necks are more stable, but many guitars that people pay an arm and a leg for have flat-sawn necks. Flat-sawn necks can vary widely in how the grain pattern lines up, but I doubt you’ll see particular care taken on that unless you’re buying a custom shop instrument (much more $$$).

The other thing is that there’s still a tiny bit of variability in mass-produced solid bodies and necks, so there can be slight differences in how well neck A fits into neck pocket B, but unless you’re looking at an absolutely terrible fit, I don’t think it will matter much. It’s possible that quality control at a company will check for things like that and remove any bad fits from the “sell these for a higher price” pile, but not necessarily.

Then you get into really esoteric stuff that’s of questionable benefit. PRS claims that they shape their USA necks only a little bit at a time over the course of something like a month or two, with the idea that any changes in the shape of the wood as it “resettles” or acclimates to the humidity in the factory will get smoothed out better, and the neck will be less likely to move again afterwards. It sounds nice in theory, but I’m skeptical about how much real benefit that would have.

Another thing to consider is that “EXTREME!!! neck stability” is mostly something you need to worry about if your guitar is frequently exposed to sudden changes in temperature and/or humidity (e.g. if you’re a musician touring between different regions of the world). For someone mostly staying in one region? Not so much.

And if the main symptom you’re worried about is “tuning stability” it’s very likely that the problem lies in your nut, your bridge, or your tuners, all of which are replaceable for modest prices (though you can pay extremes if you want to). I think the vast majority of tuning issues come down to the string binding at the nut, which can be remedied by 1) checking that the nut slots are shaped properly and free of burrs, 2) adding some kind of lubricant to the nut (a classic DIY lube is graphite from pencil led, either by itself or suspended in a bit of petroleum jelly) 3) replacing the nut with either a roller nut or a self-lubricating nut. While replacing a plastic or bone nut with a self-lubricating one (e.g. Graph Tech TUSQ) is a fairly simple operation, if you’re going to do it yourself, look up some tutorials online first for tips on how to do it without accidentally damaging the fretboard. I think Dan Erlewine (of stewmac.com fame) has some good videos on it.

Edit: Most often the differences you’ll notice between an expensive off-the-rack guitar and a cheap off-the-rack guitar boil down to the amount of labor that was put into final fit and finish, mostly the fret work. Even expensive guitars can have sharp fret ends after they’re shipped from one part of the world to another. People on the internet seem to obsess about whether a new guitar has sharp fret ends, but they’re inexpensive to remedy and even expensive guitars can have them, even if they were dressed perfectly when they left the factory.

The main things to worry about when you’re testing a solid-body guitar off the rack is whether the neck, the pickups and the bridge are aligned properly, whether the neck is warped, and whether any of the frets buzz. If I’m seriously thinking about buying a guitar, I do a full-step bend at every fret on every string to check for buzz or fretting out (just check first that there’s some neck relief, but not a ridiculous amount of neck relief: too much neck relief can hide buzzes that will appear once you reduce the relief to a reasonable amount).

I wouldn’t buy a brand new guitar that truly needed a fret leveling, but even most cheap guitars don’t. Also, any risk for post-purchase warping of the neck wood is mainly with necks that are unfinished or only oil-finished.

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Lotta people and equipment involved in all that. Definitely costs north of $150;) But sounds like you know your way around the factory; I appreciate the feedback.

I’d guess you don’t fool around much with cheapo guitars or I’d ask what you think of Squier necks. More likely you’ve replaced a neck or two. If so, let me know what you think of going that route.

I’m not a pro, I just spent a lot of time doing homework and tinkering on my own guitars.

I think Squier necks by and large are just fine. Main thing is to inspect thoroughly when you buy it to make sure you don’t get one that’s genuinely defective on purchase. I’m a big fan of cheapish guitars. My most expensive guitar is a USA Peavey Wolfgang Standard, which honestly I hang on to mostly for sentimental and fanboy reasons.

I think the best value in new guitars now is in the stuff that comes out of the big factories in Indonesia (under various brand names). I’m mostly a superstrat kind of guy, and I think the cheaper Ibanezes and Schecters are great values.

Strat-wise, various flavors of Squiers, Jay Tursers, etc. all seem decent to me. Only cheap Strats I’ve specifically disliked were a Strat clone whose name escapes me where the edge of fretboard wasn’t as rounded as I’d like. And at the bottom of the price spectrum, you may or may not like the pickups, but many people have replacement pickups in mind anyway.

I went through a phase a few years ago where I did a lot of window shopping on Warmoth.com, but after going through a period where I did a lot of second-hand guitar shopping for family, I realized I’m honestly not that picky about guitar necks. Main thing is I don’t like how sticky a heavy gloss finish feels on the back of a neck, but you can just scuff it up with a Scotch-Brite pad to get more of a “satin” feel.

Good to know. You and others have made me rethink whether the cheap necks may be workable after all. I won’t give up on 'em yet.

I have a couple of pretty expensive guitars and I play my Squier Strat just as much as the others, if not more. It’s a Bullet body with a Classic Vibe neck and it feels so nice and comfortable to play.
I’d definitely suggest trying out a few higher end guitars to get a better feel for what you like and what areas your current guitar might be lacking.
But a well set up Squier can definitely be a great player!
P.S. Do some research into rolling your fretboard edges, it can really transform the feel of a cheap neck :grin:

Let’s be honest, the price difference between cheap and expensive guitars is:

  1. The time put into the setup and a little polish
  2. The willingness of the customer to pay for a big name

Theres almost no bad guitars anymore, since everything mass produced is CNC-milled anyway.

@1: As you @Yaakov said you can do setups yourself, I would not feel bad about using cheap guitars. I own a 130€ Harley Benton Strat that more or less became my most played guitar, after a little fret polishing (levelling in one spot), shielding the electronics, swapping the string trees and adjusting the nut (which I will replace, but I couldn’t find the time).

@2: I played Squiers that were really great guitars. Still I think if I were willing to pay that “much”, I’d probably save some money or wait for a good opportunity to get a good deal on a used Fender just for the logo on the headstock :wink: Irrational but well…

So for me it’s either really cheap and put in some work or the real deal :wink:

Tom

So good, this is what I wanted - people who can speak to Squier vs. More-Expensive-Guitar…!

If you put aside fretwork and other aspects of the build that affect comfort/feel, and zero in on intonation… are you still willing to say you like the Squier/Harley Benton/etc.?

I can get a Squier intonated the day I finish a set-up. The question is when the humidity changes, temperature changes, the guitar gets played a lot, etc., etc., does the neck start to compromise and there goes intonation. (I sort of feel the answer’s yes, though I don’t have enough experience to say so with confidence.)

(I’m kind of ignoring issues that pertain more to the tuning machines, like the guitar holding to tune, since that’s gonna’ vary a lot - some cheap tuners are good, others not - and it’s a good, affordable mod to do anyway.)

Any guitar is going to need a slight adjustment every now and then, I haven’t noticed any unusual movement in my cheaper ones. Even your cheapest Squire has a functional truss rod.
These days there’s all kinds of extra reinforcement methods available once you get into more midrange intruments. Roasted maple, carbon fibe rods, multi-laminate construction etc.
I have a Strat with a Warmoth roasted maple neck and stainless steel frets and I don’t think I’ve had to do any kind of maintainance with it at all. But I still check whether I need to tweak the relief everytime I change strings, so it doesn’t make much difference to me.
By the way, if you’re having problems with intonation on your Squier it’s probably more likely to be an issue with your bridge saddles. The bent steel saddles tend to move a bit, especially the cheapo ones.
You can get a set of modern style replacements for pretty cheap and in my opinion they’re more stable and feel way nicer when palm muting.

So, intonation has nothing to do with neck stability, and is just a matter of accurate fret positioning and nothing egregiously wrong with the fretwork (EDIT - and, rereading this, those are two things I’d take for granted on any production guitar made in the last 20 years, that the frets are in the right spot and good enough not to impact intonation), and then adjusting saddle position. If a guitar is intonated right, and you don’t change string gauges, it would take a LOT of neck warp or movement to make intonation become audible off.

As far as how neck stability impacts setup… I mean, neck quality is less of an issue than finish, I think. An unfinished or minimally finished neck will be a lot more susceptable to climate shifts than a more heavily finished one. Thickness is an issue here - I’ve come full circle a bit these days but there was a time when I mostly played Ibanez guitars with their thin “Wizard” profile that I’d steel wool the finish off the backs and then lightly tung oil. Very well made necks… but I could feel the change of seasons in the way the action would change over time, while my thicker, finished Strat neck never budged.

I don’t think price is strongly correlated with neck stability, though, at least in modern guitars, from reputable companies (Squier is one).

My honest advice here… start saving, but absolutely DON’T spend $1000-1500 on a guitar for a few years until you really know what you like in a guitar, and spend the next few years playing as many different types of guitars as you can. It’s not that more expensive guitars can’t be nicer than cheaper ones (I’d say on average they are, but there’s a LOT of variability there), but I think two other reasons - one, if you haven’t had much experience with nicer guitars than what you’re playing now, you’re probably not going to really notice/mind thew differences, and you should really have enough experience so that you WILL notice and appreciate the differences when you’re spending that kind of money… and two, because it would really suck if you went out and spent $1500 on a Fender Professional, loved it… and two years down the road realized that what you really wanted was some sort of super-strat with humbuckers, deeper cutaways, and a fully floating bridge.

Also, fret height is a matter of preference (I like jumbo frets, feel weird playing guitars wiith anything less than medium-jumbo, etc), but fretwork itself is very important for intonation and buzz-free action. This can definitely be a differentiator.

I really like the amount of italics and all caps Drew uses to hammer home points

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:rofl: Thanks man. I tend to write a lot, so the occasional emphasized bit probably helps.

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For sure. I’m trying to get in the habit of checking relief at least seasonally. That’s also a good point about the saddles - very good place to spend a little money if intonation is so much on my mind.