'Modern' Metronome Use

General Music Discussion
#9

Some ideas here though it’s drum focused:

Another idea, and I can’t remember where I came across this or I’d link the original source, is that you need to build both your ability to set a pulse (i.e. drive the band) and your ability to follow a pulse (i.e. stay with the band) so what you want is a metronome that randomly drops in and out so you can work on both simultaneously (I use Timeguru for this, it allows you to set what percentage of clicks will disappear).

I also like setting it up as a regular metronome but every fourth bar is silent.

edit: Click only on upbeat 16ths is a good one as well, that may well be in the video I linked, I haven’t watched it for a while

#10

I agree, and the fact that the “established knowledge” is factually wrong on many critical aspects does not help.

Back to the topic of time, metronome use, etc., I’m curious if classical rhythm has any insight into what is commonly known as groove ie. the manipulation of the beat besides labeling a passage as rubato.

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#11

My personal take on the subject:

  1. learn your chunks independently of a click

  2. experiment with different ways to execute the same chunks in relation to a click (e.g. “straight” like exactly 1 chunk per click, or syncopated in different ways)

  3. record yourself and verify that you are really playing with the desired timing

Among other things, it’s super easy to think you are following a click when you actually aren’t (ask me how I know). If you don’t measure, you can spend 10 years doing metronome work and still not know that you are rushing, dragging or not following at all (again, ask me how I know).

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#12

Classical music is the last place I’d look for information about groove. Those concepts were developed from music meant for dancing. For me that means modern R&B and hip-hop, but your tastes may be different.

If you’re interested in groove theory and you haven’t read Dilla Time yet, I cant recommend it enough. Ethan Hein’s blog is probably something you might want to check out also.

#13

Strange that something like GP8 or Logic doesn’t have a way to compare what it hears with the sheet music or TAB.

#14

I am an extreme rhythm and time nerd and I have my students do a wide variety of things with the metronome.

The metronome is a tool that can be used to solve problems and build specific skills. It also can be irrelevant or even harmful depending on the objective of the specific practice activity.

I think this discussion is easier to have if we narrow down what specific thing we’re trying to accomplish in our practice. “Have good time” is very broad. For example, some people groove like hell but might not be precise in a metronomic way, while you can program a computer to have absolute perfect note durations but that’s usually not what we think of as a good rhythmic feel.

And that’s ONLY regarding the very broad concept of “good time.” There are lots of other things someone might be wanting to work on, for example being able to improvise with interesting rhythmic ideas but still have a strong sense of where beat 1/bar 1 is in a form, or being able to improvise along with other musicians that are doing complex rhythms but still be able to hold form, etc.

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#15

You definitely can play like shit with 2+4 on the metronome. I can show you.

It’s very helpful for many things but is not a cure all. It is good to understand that just because you’re playing with the metronome on 2+4 doesn’t mean you’re grooving. It also doesn’t necessarily translate into playing with real people who are not metronomic.

I definitely thought my time was pretty ok because I could play jazz tunes with the metronome on 2+4. It was Christiaan Van Hemert who listened to me and told me my time was really awful and that I couldn’t swing who sort of woke me up (he was totally right). Playing rhythms more “squarely swinging” (meaning playing in a sort of rigid long-short pattern) helped me lock in a lot of things. The Synchronicity course here was valuable as well.

I think my rhythm is a lot better, tbh not much of that is because of 2+4 on the metronome although that certainly is helpful.

2+4 on the metronome, recording yourself and then listening critically to how much you’re locked in with it is a good one. You can totally be playing along with the metronome and be out of time with it and not really know it. Are your notes really hitting with the clicks?

#16

Like anything in life, it can be done wrong. I’m struggling to understand how come that disclaimer might have been necessary.

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#17

well I’m quoting you “The 2 and the 4 make you inevitably groovy. This is the way.” Disclaimer comes because you are stating this like a fact, and I’m saying nope, there’s nothing inevitable about it. You can totally play out of time against 2+4 and have generally terrible rhythm. Just being able to play against 2+4 shows that you can play against 2+4 which is definitely harder than playing with the metronome on all 4 beats, but it isn’t a sort of check sum that shows that you have good rhythm in general.

It’s definitely useful but part of a larger rhythmical practice system. The thing that makes you groovy (I think) is playing without a metronome at all and keeping consistent time (recording yourself). Or at least, lets you know if you’re groovy.

#18

I guess you take everything* literally. No problem, although it is** really hard to engage in conversation this way.

Imagine if someone tells me drinking water is the best favor I can do to my body and I reply with a rebuttal citing the dangers of drinking unholy amounts water or the implied dismissal of sleep, mental health nutrition and exercise.

Not “everything” as in every aspect of your life as I am confident*** you are familiar with figure of speech, hyperbole, and the difference between casual conversation, a scientific thesis, and declaring under oath.

**This is a guess based on empyrical evidence over a very limited sample as I don’t have the data of conversation dynamics for >6 billion people.

***Not really confident but just suspect it at best because I don’t know you.

#19

Ok everyone, I think the relevant points on communication style have been made. Let’s stay on topic :wink:

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#20

Does this experiment reflect the positive effect of playing with others consistently? I mean, to what extent is grooving with other musicians an intellectual exercise and/or “just” physics?

That thing looks like witchcraft.

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#21

I’ll stick to the point. Playing with the metronome on 2+4 in and of itself doesn’t necessarily fix your rhythm, you can play deeply out of time with a sloppy grid and still maintain a connection with the metronome.

I would say it’s pretty hard to do stuff like play with the metronome only on 4 or only on 2 every other measure with a really slow metronome and consistently hit it on time with bad time or a sloppy grid.

2+4 is pretty easy though, sort of a party trick.

I should say the reason I feel strongly about this is I spent a lot of time playing with the metronome on 2+4 and thought that because I could, it meant my time was pretty good. My time was not very good at all and very inconsistent. Ultimately it gave me false confidence.

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#22

(Video in English with French subtitles)

#23

While there are some exercises using a metronome that can be useful, there is a lot to rhythm and having good rhythmic feel and good time beyond the metronome. The “RHYTHMIC DEVELOPMENT and PERFORMANCE IN 4/4” volume (3rd volume of the rhythm book series), discusses “hide the metronome” exercises which are perhaps the best (the book also discusses non-metronomic time in various feels). I have often seen discussions e.g. on facebook, in which someone writes “rhythm is important” and then all the answers are about playing with a metronome - it strikes me as parallel to someone saying “melody and pitch are important” and then everyone replying “yes, i use a tuning fork” - it simply misses almost all of the topic. Caveat: if you are only using a metronome to measure how fast you can play 16th notes, this post is irrelevant to you(!). Regarding a couple other things people posted: if you are playing any kind of Afro-centric music (i.e. anything that has roots in African rhythm, with steady pulse and groove - jazz, funk, rock, Brazilian, Afro-cuban, hip-hop, reggae, etc.), classical music is not the place to look for this. I also smiled that steve506 posted a Carol Kaye video, since I used to play in her band - she is 91 years old and still posting on the internet! I know many here may not be interested in getting into rhythm deeply, but if you are, I suggest you check out therhythmbooks.com (the series has more than 2,000 supporting mp3s online, as well). For those who are only interested in metronomes, try “hide the metronome” exercises.

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#24

Woah! Was that experience as surreal as it sounds? Cause we’re talking legendary levels of cool now.

Also, I appreciate the book recommendations. Right now, I am getting into a rhythm rabbit hole and that’s the kind of content that I’ve been finding most fascinating these days.

#25

There’s an ebook available on Kindle (and a video series freely available on youtube) by a guy who made his own metronome app called Bounce Metronome, and the stuff he discusses is excellent - he starts with the “hide the metronome” concept, but also starts bringing in things like trying to be able to consciously to choose to always be a little ahead of the metronome or a little behind it, how much you swing, etc.

I’m interested in looking at the development of rhythmic abilities in general, but the metronome is usually what people are told to do to start with, which is why I wanted to see if anyone’s looked at ways to use the metronome more intelligently than something as simple as “set the metronome to 2 and 4”, which has value but isn’t a panacea.

I need to get my hands on a copy of Dilla Time, because Dilla is great, and his use of “wonky” rhythms is amazing.

#26

steve506 - it was definitely fun to perform with Carol and to hang out with her. There was only one thing that was perhaps a bit “surreal”: she was a guitarist before she became a bassist, and wanted to play a couple of pieces on my guitar in her quartet, while having me play electric bass. I do not claim to be a bassist, so playing electric bass behind her was … well “surreal” isn’t a bad word to describe it (!)

Also, steve506 - would love to hear your experience and progress if you work with that rhythm book series!

ShadowoftheSun - “Hide the metronome” idea has been around for a while - the drummer in one of my earlier quartets (Ari Hoenig) is another person who teaches it. Of course, playing behind and ahead of the beat are good skills, though doing that only with a metronome may not be the most musical way to get there (even playalong tracks, for all their shortcomings, could be useful here, as is transcribing solos by masters of this and learning to phrase exactly as they do). And yes, J Dilla’s work is very worth cfhecking out: especially in music that had been very drum machine/quantized/mechanical-ish, his selective non-metronomic placement of certain rhythmic hits in the drum parts was so innovative and influential.

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#27

I wholeheartedly agree. While it serves a purpose, it doesn’t tell the whole story.

Personally, my rhythmic journey has led me to learn a couple drum grooves on my beloved electronic drumkit and it’s been really fun to, well, learning what my own natural groove is, whatever that means, so I’m kind of jamming with myself and have come across some interesting nuances here and there that make my playing experience richer (for lack of a better word).

On top of that, well, experience has shown me that people in my social circle are more impressed by a basic drum groove with a sneaky syncopation than all the shred in the world, which is funny and sad for me as a devoted guitarist. I guess we humans are naturally attracted to danceable sounds.

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#28

I don’t think I have the greatest sense of precice timing… but I’m definitely getting better. A few thoughts on what’s helped me:

I find playing to drum loops a lot easier, and probably more useful, than playing to metronome clicks. Rather, I suppose, now I can play to both pretty easily, but when I was first starting on this stuff WAY back in the day it was a lot easier for me to play to a drum track… and to this day I’m more inclined to pull up a MIDI drum riff and practice/jam to that.

It’s silly, but… tapping your foot in time to your beat seems to help a LOT, and somehow bobbing my head to the groove seems to help even more. Moving in time to the groove you’re playing really helps your whole body lock in.

I guess those are about all I have to add.

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