My picking technique - UWPS with a downward slant?

Technique Critique
#9

Haha, thanks. I’ve spent a long time (years) trying to develop a really relaxed/effortless picking motion without tension in the arm, keeping it controlled and gradually raising the metronome speed. It’s still in progress. Practicing with a fairly high gain tone really helped me get cleaner, as it amplifies the unwanted string noise and forces you to learn good muting technique.

Thanks man. I honestly doubt I’m doing DWPS with swiping because that would suggest I could play DWPS licks with ease, and I really can’t, they’re very uncomfortable and my pick gets choked up in the strings. To be honest I don’t know what I’m doing.

I’ve never even thought of this before. Since the flat edge of my hand is resting on the bridge, and arm on the body of the guitar, wouldn’t my approach angle follow the angle of the guitar anyway? Also if I’ve understood you correctly, the fact that the top of my guitar is further back (towards me) should make DWPS easier instead of harder, right?

I’m having a jam with my band next weekend, if everything goes to plan I’m gonna be able to borrow a far more high-tech camera from one of the guys and get a way better video then.

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#10

You play with more efficiency and speed than the average guitar player. PRETTY sure you’re doing just fine :wink:

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#11

This looks like DWPS to me. Pretty damn shreddin’

#12

It depends on the motion mechanic you’re using! If you’re rotational then DWPS gets easier, but if you’re using elbow, or wrist-deviation, then UWPS is easier.

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#13

WARNING: Massive post!

So I met up with a friend and he helped me get a better video using his phone. We gave it the full Masters in Mechanics treatment (Amateurs in Mechanics?) which was pretty fun. We don’t get ‘sunlight’ here in England so used a stage light. I tried a bunch of different stuff:

This is the first time I’ve seen my techique slowed down, and this close up, so it was pretty revealing (and humbling in some cases).

My observations: (feel free to correct / point out any holes in my analysis)

  1. UWPS 6nps - this is my fastest and most comfortable technique. The pick slant actually looks pretty neutral - I was under the impression it was downward, as it kind of looks like it from above. There’s a fairly big edge picking angle.
    I think the motional mechanic is mainly wrist, a combination of deviation and flexion/extension (door knocking motion) to get the pick over the strings after a downstroke.
    My max speed for this is around 200bpm, which is the same as my max speed on a single string - I think this is proof that the string changes aren’t slowing me down at all. I can’t ‘feel’ the string changes here, I think its exactly the same technique as on a single string.
    So I guess this solves the mystery of why I could nail UWPS licks with a ‘downward slant’ - it isnt really that downward slanted, and the wrist extension is getting me over the strings. The bad news is, I can’t switch this off, so it makes DWPS a challenge.

  2. DWPS 6nps - This feels harder and less comfortable, and the string changes feel like more effort. My max speed for this is a good 20bpm slower than for UWPS. I think this is because I am still using wrist extension after the downstroke because I can’t help it, but I also have to use wrist extension to rise above the strings on the upstroke too - so it has just ended up being stringhopping, which I know from @Troy’s video https://troygrady.com/channels/tutorials/what-is-stringhopping/ is inherently slow. I’d like to fix this somehow.

  3. DWPS 2nps - this is a real mess. Hitting wrong strings all over the place. Again, it’s clearly just reduced to stringhopping as I’m extending the wrist after both downstrokes and upstrokes, so it falls apart when I try to apply any kind of speed. Pentatonics are my kryptonite.

  4. ‘2WPS’ 3nps - this isn’t even 2WPS as I’m not even changing pickslant. I don’t have much of an explanation for this, I think it’s just stringhopping again, which is why I can’t get it as fast as my UWPS. I think I got lucky here - my success rate for these kinds of licks is very low and I usually get caught up between the strings.

  5. Sweeps - this is interesting as the edge picking angle seems to disappear, I had no idea I was doing that. I also seem to have no trouble with DWPS here, and use an extreme upward slant while descending - I think this might be because I specifically practiced sweeps using rest strokes, so I ended up with a different technique to my picking.

  6. Battle against time riff - basically just stringhopping, but it looks very similar to how Teemu does it, so I’m not complaining.

So the problem is: I’m locked into an UWPS motion using wrist extension which is slowing me down when I try anything else. I’m considering trying to suppress the wrist extension, maybe by practicing using rest strokes. Alternatively, as I think my UWPS technique is pretty solid, I could try staying primary UWPS and including a rotation to change strings after an upstroke. I have a feeling I know what the answer is - try both.

My god this post is huge - sorry, hopefully someone is bored enough to read the whole thing.
TLDR: UWPS guy struggling to do anything that isn’t UWPS.

Thoughts?

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#14

Great clip!

One point to keep in mind when you look at video like this is that the “key” to pickslanting is not the “orientation of the pick in space” but the path the tip of the pick follows as it moves through space. If the tip of the pick left a trail of pixie dust in the air as it moved, what would that trail look like?

To my eye, your technique is nearly identical to the Russ Parrish practice clip @aliendough posted in another thread.

See @aliendough’s post of the Parrish clip here:

While there are times where Parrish’s arm position isn’t letting the upstrokes clear the strings, moments like 1:12 where you see him easing into the movement suggest the underlying crosspickingness of the mechanic, which I’m seeing in your clip as well. Most of the time, it looks like the path of your pick’s movement is following a “crosspicking” path where it clears the strings (or comes very close to clearing the strings) in each direction. Based on my experimentation with similar technique, it does lend itself a little more to uwps and 2wps (in fact, I’d argue this is one of the best possible approaches for playing 2wps licks in the style of Paul Gilbert or Andy Wood). I think if you rotate your forearm slightly to a more supinated position (and perhaps, if it helps, deviate your wrist slightly to the pinkie side) you’ll find you can clear the lower (pitch) strings reliably enough to play DWPS licks with confidence. But in short, you’re in a really really really good place for mastering 2wps and possibly crosspicking, which is no small feat.

While you describe the mechanic as a combination of wrist deviation and wrist flexion/extension, if, like me, there’s actually a subtle forearm rotation component there (which I think is definitely the case with Russ Parrish), one way to help you “shut off” or reduce the wrist flexion/extension component (on occasions when you want to in order to facilitate dwps licks) might be to, in addition to my suggestions in the preceding paragraph, intentionally add some “permanent” flex to your wrist to help the forearm-rotational component take over. One way to do that is to change your arm position as follows: simply reach your picking arm further along the direction it is pointed, so that the edge of the guitar body contacts your forearm at a point closer to your elbow, forcing you to “buckle” your wrist into a more raised flexed position in order to get the pick to reach the strings (you could try a small amount of buckling, or a large amount: experiment and see how it affects your picking, though as a general rule, the more buckling, to more you’ll be forced to use forearm rotation). Mixing a little practice of that with practice of your existing technique should hopefully give you more control over the degree of flexion/extension vs the degree of rotational component even when your arm isn’t in that exaggerated “buckled” position. I also find that experimenting with some ring finger anchoring can help me regulate the amount of wrist flexion/extension employed in a position similar to your current technique.

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#15

Thanks for the super-in depth response. I have experimented with trying to force my pick position into a more downward slant like how you described, but it feels very weird and when trying to apply any kind of speed it automatically moves back to my usual technique because its so ingrained after years of playing like that. I haven’t put any real time and effort into it though, guess I just need to stick with it and practice. It seems like its gonna be a real challenge.

As an aside, Im a fan of Russ Parrish, I actually learned the solo to Steel Panther’s Gloryhole (don’t look it up at work) a while ago and at the time I wondered why I found this particular fast lick so easy: ( ithink its something like this, just wrote it down from memory)

steelpantherlick1

since finding Cracking the code it’s obvious - its because its UWPS. Just a random thing I thought was interesting.

Anyway, I’ll definitely try harder to see if I can get some control over the wrist extension by trying a more flexed wrist/rotational mechanic.

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#16

Just be careful not to “unlearn” the ability to work the technique you already have: I think the ability to pull off that compound crosspickingish movement at speed is incredibly useful.

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#17

I think I had similar issues with the 2nps DWPS stuff (still working on it actually!).

Have you tried to see what happens if you allow the fingers to touch the body of the guitar when doing DWPS? (No need to anchor the fingers stiffly, you could let them glide).
Depending on your posture, anatomy etc. it can be challenging to play those passages while keeping a fully floating hand (at least it is for me, while UWPS / neutral seems feasible with the floating hand).

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#18

Awesome footage / playing, great observations on your own technique and great observations from @frylock, which I’m coming to expect. You’re all setting a very high bar for yourselves!

Your technique is cool and this is a really interesting case. Aside from what’s been mentioned I’ll point out:

  1. Regarding crosspicky-ness, yes, possibly, but that doesn’t really explain why the “UWPS” takes — in air quotes, since it’s not really clear that this is strictly what we’re seeing — feel easier. For whatever reason, the movement is biased toward phrases that terminate on a downstroke.

  2. There’s a bunch of finger movement going on here, particularly in the “2WPS” and “DWPS” takes, again in air quotes. To the extent that we can even call this pickslanting, a certain amount of that modulation is being accomplished via finger movement. Specifically, you appear to go straighter thumb / less edge for upstroke string changes. So if those are the problematic ones, your hands appear to be telling you that this is the way they want to be done. Ok fine, take the hint. Try forcing a flat edge / straight thumb for upstroke string change licks, like the pentatonic stuff, and see if that gets you anywhere.

Otherwise great stuff, let us know how you make out with these suggestions.

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#19

Kick Ass. lol!!!

#20

Thanks Troy. This is really insightful and helpful. I was aware I was generally keeping my fingers really loose, and not keeping them locked in place or anything, but I didnt place any importance on it and had no idea the movement was dependent on the string changes. In fact I’m only just watching it back and noticing it now - the fingers are totally relaxed but locked in place for ‘UWPS’, but for ‘DWPS’ and ‘2WPS’ they’re all over the place, like they dont know where to go. It’s really starting to make sense.
Another piece of evidence towards this is that the Yngwie-style 3-string sweeps, which is the only lick where I seem to have no problem with DWPS, has the thumb locked straight, and with a flat pick edge, just like you suggested. Maybe this is what my ideal form should be for alternate DWPS too. This is kind of exciting.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, I’m gonna try and take a bit of everything on board. This forum is honestly really cool, I feel kind of like a living science project haha. I’ll try and scrounge together some spare time to work on it and be back with an update on how it goes. Cheers!

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#21

I forgot about this, we did an extra video trying out 240 fps video on the Google pixel phone. It probably doesn’t add anything to the discussion put I thought I’d put it here in case anyone’s interested in seeing what picking looks like in REALLY slow mo. 8x slower part starts 30 seconds in.

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#22

Awesome. The 240 mode looks pretty good here - there’s a lot more detail visible in the movement. Specifically, and I’d like others to take a look and confirm this, but it looks like your motion mechanic itself is at least partly finger-driven, similar to Martin Miller’s technique, or what Batio does when he uses his finger technique. For example, check out measure 100 in the Rainforest Outro clip, when he uses that technique for a tremolo line:

https://troygrady.com/interviews/michael-angelo-batio-2017/clips/rainforest-outro/

What Mike is doing is perhaps more strictly fingers than what you’re using, but note that the pushing with the index and thumb is what causes the escaped downstroke. So this movement, by itself, is basically an upward pickslanting technique. Which would explain why you find those lines easier.

Next time you set up a camera, try a take that’s more typical audience perspective / face-on. That will make it clearer how much actual side to side wrist movement is happening. And also try it with your sleeve rolled up so you can get a look at how much forearm is involved.

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#23

lol, This video rules man.

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#24

I think I’m seeing the same thing you are. Fingers not as a primary driver, but there definitely seems to be movement at the MCP joint of the thumb (I think I sometimes do something similar, but more from the thumb CMC joint). This kind of joint movement could be a bit of a “speed booster” in addition to providing a slant change mechanism. There also seems to be some thumb movement that’s just accomodating the leading edge angle as he tracks across the strings.

I also think we see something interesting about how the thumb movement relates to his anchoring. In particular, while there aren’t any fingers anchored, the anchoring of the ulnar edge of the hand with pinkie extended will create a certain dynamic for how the metacarpals will move relative to each other when the “palm” itself flexes slightly as part of the thumb movement. I think there’s something interesting to be investigated re: this type of anchoring versus ring finger anchoring (which we see from Darius Wave), or even “pinkie on the guitar face” anchoring, which we sometimes see. I think Paul Gilbert does a kind of “ulnar palm edge” anchoring similar to this, though he generally has the phalanges of the pinkie curled, but sill has the MCP joint of the pinkie arched back/up similar to the extended pinkie we see here. I really think there’s something interesting going on about what’s happening within the palm in this sort of “wrist” technique, and what role anchoring (and finger MCP joint action) plays in enabling it.

Another thing that pinkie MCP joint extension could be achieving is affecting the position of the pinkie metacarpal relative to the rest of the hand, for the purpose of how the ulnar edge is positioned for use as a rest or anchor along the bridge (or strings). I think that could be an ingredient for enabling movements like this one to work. I.e. having pinkie metacarpal thrust forward could be a factor in enabling an efficient wrist flexion/extension component without losing tacticle reference against the bridge.

Glad I’m posting that screed here, and not on You-“you’re overanalyzing it dude, just play with feel”-tube.

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#25

Ok, I’ll try and get another video up with a front view eventually. It might have to be with my crappy stone age phone.

I’ve been messing around while paying extra attention to my finger movement and I’ve found that I can play this particular ‘2WPS’ chunk with relative ease, starting with a flexed thumb:

G --------------------------------------5–7--8-(flex thumb)—
D ----5–7--8-(extend thumb)--------------------------------- (repeat)
A -------------------------------------------------------------------

it seems that the thumb movement is not only helping with the string changes but also helping to move my pick up to the higher string.

But if I try to play it moving to a lower string:

G ---------------------------------
D ----5–7--8-------------------- (repeat)
A ----------------5–7--8--------

I can’t do it at all, and my thumb is trying to stay extended all the time. Also note that this phrase is equivalent to the first one but starting on an upstroke.

So, what I think the solution is is to reverse the thumb movement like this:

G ------------------------------------------------------------------
D ----5–7--8-(extend thumb)--------------------------------- (repeat)
A --------------------------------------5–7--8-(flex thumb)----

So like in the first pattern, string changes on a downstroke are done with a thumb extension and string changes on an upstroke are done with a thumb flex. This is what I’m working on right now, but it feels really weird. I think its going to be the key to ‘2WPS’ scale runs across more than 2 strings - a full 3nps ascending scale run is going to need both of these movements to work.

EDIT: just realised the first pattern is outside picking and the second is inside picking. So I guess this is why I’ve always found outside picking easier?

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#26

Bloody hell, let me grab a dictionary and I’ll get back to you eventually

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#27

A lot (most?) of what I’m talking about isn’t specific advice for you, but general questions about picking technique that arise when we look at your technique and compare it to others. :smiley: There are difficult things you’re doing “naturally” that work, and I’m interested in the details of how.

#28

Sorry if you’re getting caught in the nerd crossfire here!

Short story it looks like you’re using some kind of finger motion. Yes, part of that is to control edge picking, similar to what Teemu does. But are you actually moving your index and thumb with every picked note, as part of the picking motion itself? That’s a fundamental question here. Can you feel if you’re actually doing that?

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