Ah so maybe we’re getting somewhere! Playing Tumeni notes requires DBX, a picking motion that escapes in both directions. If not done correctly, both the upstrokes and the down strokes will have wrist extension and this is VERY fatiguing. It is “string hopping”. It wouldn’t surprise me if you don’t have this motion (yet). Eric Johnson doesn’t have a DBX motion either So it has nothing to do with skill level, just a ‘trick’ you need to learn that you haven’t.
I guess to @tommo’s point, we have to make sure we are helping you solve the actual problem. @Tom_Gilroy mentioned a good point about your hybrid picking. Do you feel any discomfort with that? Or is the only pain/discomfort you feel what happens when you play Tumeni Notes, or similar pieces where it’s required you alternate pick everything, as you’ve described above?
If it really is just the DBX required stuff that hurts, we probably need to point you in the direction of how to pick in that style. There’s a good amount of material on here about that.
I did do this but once I get to a certain speed it all starts to feel very uncomfortable if I don’t hybrid or economy pick Its the changing strings that causes the main problems for me
Cool! Just for posterity, the recommended approach of CtC is:
Find a picking motion that you can do fast (tremolo)
Play some phrases on one string and ensure hand sync is rock solid
Play phrases require string changes that work with your motion. Ex: if your fast picking motion is upstroke escape, play phrases that change strings after upstrokes (e.g. Eric Johnson, Yngwie Malmsteen). If your fast picking motion is downstroke escape, play phrases that change strings after downstrokes (e.g. John McLaughlin, Andy James, Al Di Meola)
That’s all prerequisite. The thinking is the freedom you experience in single escape playing will be a reference point to whatever else you start adding to your technical arsenal. It looked like in your above clips you have a fast picking motion. I don’t know if it’s upstroke or downstroke escape, but you may want to try a handful of phrases that only change strings after upstrokes as well as some that only change strings after downstrokes. See which are easier, that’s your default picking trajectory.
The DBX stuff is a little ‘harder’ mainly because there are going to be multiple joints that all work together. We don’t quite have anything analogous to a tremolo for DBX (that I’m aware of). All we can do is find phrases that intentionally require changes after upstrokes and down strokes and work on them with an efficient motion. So, we have to do something we don’t yet know how to do lol!
I’m not a monster DBX player, but I’ve been working on it for the past few months and made good progress. I was at least able to bypass all the ‘string hopping’ and frustrations I’ve heard others go through, mainly through material of Troy’s, a little of my own etudes thrown in for variety. At this point I can do 16ths above 120 bpm (blue grassy arpeggio stuff) which on the best days caps out around 150bpm. So, not a monster but I’m happy with the progress.
For me, the most helpful video on this was here:
The setup instructions were very helpful though. It makes it hard to do a ‘wrong’ motion. You’ll either do it how Troy is, or you’ll be string hopping.
Granted, I found out right away the string skip in the forward roll felt difficult.If there’s one thing I’ve learned on here, it’s to not get stuck on something hard. Find something easy, make that the core and work outward from there. I found out I was better at patterns like this:
and this:
So, adjacent string changes. Once I could do those and got them smooth, the string skips became much easier.
It’s also advised to not only do crosspicking but just in general phrases that require a curved motion. Fiddle tunes, etc. There are tons of examples in the Andy Wood interview:
@cmcgee11235 has a whole thread about his DBX journey. He learned it really quickly too.
Sorry for the long post. Again, this doesn’t replace a what a medical pro says. I’d only do any of my above suggestions if they are pain/tension/discomfort free.
I have no pain when I hybrid or economy pick or legato with pick like the yngwie pick pick pull off its just when I have to pick everything which must be the double escape motion causing this.
and I wonder if its because its just so alien to me. I have always used hybrid and economy picking to get around it. And pull offs of course
I think so, but slant can be really deceiving. You can have a downward slant and still be using a motion that is making the downstrokes go away from the body of the guitar, which would make your downstrokes escape instead. In this case, there would be a mismatch and it would feel difficult to switch strings.
If you aren’t sure if your motion escapes on an up or downstroke I’d try a simple pattern like this:
It might be moot since it seems like you really want a motion that escapes in both directions. I’m just trying to make sure we haven’t passed that one checkbox that’s pretty important - that you can sustain alternate picking where all the pick strokes are escaping in just one direction, and what specifically that direction is.
that’s awesome to know. It means you have an easier time with DSX, or “downstroke escape”. In that case, trying to do a downward pick slant will actually do more harm than good. A neutral or slightly upward slant will be better for DSX playing.
When you do play that second example and push your speed (let’s say, at or above 6’s at 120 bpm), does it seem like your wrist is driving the motion, rather than your elbow? Nothing’s wrong with elbow, but if you can get just your wrist doing it, you won’t be far off from a setup like Andy Wood has, and he’s got a killer DBX motion. Just trying to get you to a ‘springboard’ so you can get moving on the DBX stuff since that seems like your goal. Granted, the DBX motion itself feels a good bit different from DSX, but a wrist based DSX setup can be used as a basis to transition into DBX territory
Based on that last video which shows you play DSX with ease and your report of the straight ascending 6’s on each string feeling more difficult, yeah I would agree.
That’s up to you. Based on all your other great playing, I don’t see tons of consecutive alternate picked stuff. And that’s not at all a dig, because everything about your playing is awesome. But if that’s a thing you’d like to add to your playing, you could get tons of mileage, almost for free, just by assembling a bunch of phrases that only change strings after downstrokes. It would give you plenty of licks that have that clarity of alternate picking and you’d have virtually nothing new to learn (other than the patterns themselves).
If you’re dead set on DBX, you’d need to learn a DBX motion. Your setup in that last clip is not far off from Andy Wood’s. It’s ‘lightly supinated’ and doesn’t look like there’s a ton of slant.
The way to get that setup escaping in both directions is what Troy calls “9 0 2” picking.
Your downstrokes are already probably doing the ‘2 oclock’ part, so it’s just going to be learning how to get the upstrokes to clear. The way I did that was playing some simple arpeggios like some of the crosspicking links I posted. I intentionally chose stuff that had a really easy fretting hand so I could concentrate on the picking. I focused on just doing small tweaks until I had a motion that was capable of breaking 120 bpm 16ths for the arpgeggios. Pretty sure at that speed, as long as you can sustain it for a decent amount, it’s past what string hopping can do. You definitely don’t want to just play slow and gradually increase the tempo. You need to force your hands to learn an efficient motion and a moderate/fast speed is a good litmus test for it. It’s just finding that motion that is tough, at least for me.
But again, I tried to learn from others’ frustrations. I knew if what I did couldn’t go fast, it was wrong. I’d try to tweak it until something started to feel easy. This thread is what inspired me:
I think we figured it out I really appreciate all of your help thank you. I think I will probably do both because making lines that use only down picking on the change is something I can do in the mean time and then I will work on the banjo rolls at a quick tempo and watch some of these 9 and 2 videos cause I would love to have that control in either direction.
I think that is triplets at 120, sorry I meant straight 16ths at or above 120.
The motion looks nice and flat (meaning not string hoppy, so a good thing) so you’re probably on the right track. I’d see if you can crack 120-ish at straight 16ths. I found that patterns without the string skip were an easier entry point, but that could just be me.
This was another fun one I learned in the beginning, right from the Andy Wood interview:
I know one nice thing about the string skip, like you are doing, is that it does force the motion to be smooth. Play around with some different stuff and see what happens. No pain/discomfort from any of this stuff yet though, right?
So it has nothing to do with skill level, just a ‘trick’ you need to learn that you haven’t.
