no pain but that feels impossible
This was an eye opener for me - I can play the second example more than 2x as fast as the first! I didnāt realise there would be such a big difference!
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I couldnāt do it at first either because I hadnāt figured out the motion. I remember focusing on just the ascending part with little pauses. Just focusing on the speed, not being clean. That was how I stumbled onto the right movement. And that āeverything you need to know about crosspicking in 2 minutesā video by Troy. Just following his setup instructions was really helpful. Iām sure youāll get it! The eighth note triplet at 120 thing you did looked good, we just have to make sure it can go bluegrass fast to ensure itās indeed the right motion. I know a āsymptomā of the wrong motion is that it feels capped and canāt crack that 16ths @ 120 bpm neighborhood (without strain, discomfort)
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Nice! Iād say play a bunch of DSX stuff then 
Whats a good exercise for descending usX and DSX
I think you found my 27 year old problem with my right hand
This is really weird for me to do and I am trying hard but itās not natural for me.
I think this may really help with my alternate picking.
I have a feeling once I find it it will feel like riding a bike right. Itās a form you go into
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Well letās give credit to the man himself Everything I know about picking is because Iāve spent tons of time on Troyās amazing platform. He really did crack it, and heās continually researching and trying to learn more just in case heās missed anything. Crosspicking and wrist based motions in general is the most recent thing heās cracked. Iām definitely glad I could help get you the info you need though
Yeah Iāve heard Troy call the various picking motions āmodesā or āformsā or something like that. I think, at least for me, the form that I used to get my foot in the door for crosspicking definitely felt really strange. I donāt need that exact setup anymore but it really helped to get started. Particularly the āflatā palm and the slight bend (extension) in the wrist.
Since you seem to have a boatload of cool licks and phrases already, Iād just say try to adapt some of those (i.e. re-finger) so that you have to change strings after downstrokes (DSX) or upstrokes (USX) depending which you are practicing. I guess that may be tough though since you probably know your phrases so well, Iād bet you donāt even think about picking. Turning them into something else might be more work than learning something new. I can tab you up some sequency-type stuff in case it helps.
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So awesome of you brother appreciate all the kind words too yeah honestly I have never thought about picking until I hit this roadblock
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A Quick answer to this from a former classical guitarist:
This is actually not a problem. I know of several rather progressive āschoolsā of technique, who emphasize that plucking motion, and use it as a teaching tool.
One such example for classical guitar would be Aniello Desiderio, who also teaches this to his students.
@Tom_Gilroy I am curious though, since you are very knowledgeable about this stuff. Where do you see a problem in this?
Here are 2 Dminor descending runs, one USX the other DSX.
Iād definitely encourage you to do your own thing since you obviously have an amazing vocabulary already. Maybe those will help give you some ideas to do more āmusicalā things and still get the benefits of single escape playing. Also noteworthy is that any completely USX phrase can be with DSX, just start on an upstroke instead of a downstroke. The inverse is true as well.
One other huge leap forward for me that I learned on here is @Tom_Gilroyās amazing research on left hand efficiency. Most fast things I do now, I try as hard as I can to use these āEfficient Digital Cyclesā and I made sure to use them on the above tabs.
Check this out in your spare time:
Thereās a few factors.
Any flexion at the DIPs implies that flexor digitorum profundus (FDP) is engaged, as it is the sole flexor of that joint. FDP is an interesting muscle. It is by far the strongest finger flexor and is responsible for the majority of grip strength, however the FDP tendons of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th digits all come from a common muscle belly, meaning independent FDP action for these digits is impossible. Moreover, FDP has an unusual innervation. The radial side of the muscle (including the muscle belly for the index finger) is innervated by a branch of the median nerve while the ulnar side of the muscle in innervated by the ulnar nerve. However, there is overlap, both nerves result in activation of the middle finger, and trying to activate FDP for the middle finger results in the entire muscle being activated.
What this all means, essentially, is that if FDP is activated (especially for the middle finger), itās activated for every finger. This results in a greater level of background tension, and to move the fingers with FDP activated requires all other muscles involved to work harder.
If that isnāt bad enough, extension at the MCPs requires the activation of extensor digitorum communis (EDC). The EDC extensor tendons all arise from a common muscle belly. If we activate EDC, it is activated for all.
We also have an extensor for the index finger (extensor digiti indicis) and for the fourth finger (extensor digiti minimi). EDI is usually has some degree of freedom from EDC, but the tendon for EDM is usually connected to the EDC tendons of the 3rd and 4th fingers, and quite often totally fused. EDM is a very small, weak muscle.
What this essentially means, is that if we activate FDP and EDC together, we have no facility to move our fingers in opposition to each other. They can only move as a unit.
Moreover, FDP and EDC are antagonists. Requiring EDC to activate in conjunction with FDP is forcing EDC to pull against the most powerful flexor. This will result in greater EDC fatigue.
Now, we have the issue of how we return to our neutral position after this plucking action. We canāt use either FDP or EDC to facilitate this, they were involved in the plucking action itself.
There are exactly two possibilities. We can simply cease the activation of both FDP and EDC, letting our hand return to rest. Thatās fine, but itās going to be speed limited. The other option is to recruit the lumbrical muscles, which flex the MCP joints and extend the PIPs. If using all fingers as a unit, this isnāt so bad, but we cannot use this to return individual fingers to neutral while holding others away. Lumbricals are small and weak, and forcing them to oppose both FDP and EDC (which again, would need to be activated for all fingers) would be forcing them to work at a huge disadvantage. Moreover, the lumbricals arise from the FDP tendons, so FDP activation impacts lumbrical function.
If weāre limiting our use of hybrid picking to unit movement of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers, or some subset of them letting the others come along for the ride, this movement could work to some degree, though it wouldnāt be ideal. However, if trying to use multiple fingers in hybrid picking and attempting to use them in non-unitary fashion, I am comfortable saying that this movement pattern is a problem.
Iāve given a few videos of Aniello Desiderio a cursory watch through. The camera angles arenāt ideal, but I canāt see him actually doing this at any point. Perhaps its use is situational and I just havenāt seen that situation, or maybe this is another example of an excellent guitar player (and he is a truly excellent player) who simply does not do what he thinks he does.
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FWIW, in my classical training (technique was taught to me by Julian Gray of the Peabody Conservatory), he had me only ever use the MCP joint. All other joints were to be āfirmā but not tension-ey. He specifically told me not to āpluckā. I never once questioned anything he taught me since he had the reputation of being one of the most respected instructors in the country.
Itās most likely a picking hand posture thing (in classical, the only āanchorā is the forearm resting on the edge of the guitar body) but I could never do the classical motion when hybrid picking on electric guitar. I always felt it to be more of a plucking motion (though still primarily driven from the MCP joint). I havenāt hybrid picked in ages but I made this video for some thread on hear a while back
Right or wrong, that was how I hybrid picked Definitely different than the classical motion I use.
You have a litte bit of hyperextension at the MCP joint of your 4th finger for both hands. Itās minor, but itās an unecessary activation of your EDM muscles.
Overall though, that hybrid picking motion looks good to me.
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Ha, youāre right I do! Fretting hand, doesnāt surprise me at all. I have a horrible case of flying pinky to the extent that I think I may have sustained some permanent damage on that finger. Either through improper technique, or PLENTY of finger jam injuries as a child and teenager on the basketball courts. I think Iāve posted about this before (maybe even directly to you) but my ring/pinky independence is just awful on my fretting hand. Iāve tried all sorts of things to correct it, nothing works. My right hand has way better independence between those fingers and Iāve never even trained it. Your fretting hand principle research was so nice because it helped me see that I shouldnāt even care. There are almost no phrases I play were I need ring/pinky in a fast sequence. I can always avoid it by instead using middle/ring or middle/pinky.
Now, the hyperextension on my right hand interests me. Thereās no way either of my classical teachers would have let that slide and I know I donāt do that when I play classical. So it must be the consequence of something a little off with my picking hand, maybe only when hybrid picking. Minor or not, all these little extra tensions do add up. Other than cliffs of dover and some string skipping patterns I do with octave displacement, I canāt say I hybrid pick much. Maybe that will be my next little venture. Iāll be sure to keep an eye on that pinky when I do. Thanks for the critique!
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Honestly, I think this is such an important shift in perspective.
I wasted a lot of time practicing āfinger independenceā exercises. They donāt work, they canāt work. At best they just donāt translate to actual playing, at worst they force you to fight your own anatomy and risk injuring yourself with absolutely no benefits.
Yes, the little tensions add up. Personally, I would aim to eliminate it, but I hybrid pick all the time.
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Hmmm back in my formative years, there was a time period where part of my daily routine was a Rusty Cooley slur exercise that involved whole step slurs between frets 12 and 14, all strings, ascending and descending. Then it went down the neck one fret at a time until you got to slurs between frets 1 and 3. Pretty hellacious stretch down there. I wonder if this contributed to my problems. I donāt remember any pain, but it wasnāt comfy.
Who should I check out if I wanted to take the hybrid plunge? I know Marshall Harrison does some cool hybrid things. Brad Paisley is probably my favorite guitarist (just his overall sound and styleā¦and I donāt even really like country music that much lol!). He hybrid picks a lot but I know heās not in the same league with the elite (still a fantastic player though. Phenomenal tone too).
I think Rustyās stretching is probably too extreme for a lot of people, and probably requires some degree of hypermobility. You can certainly develop flexibility, but the joints themselves can only go so far.
Brad Paisley is a great choice for hybrid picking. Iām not a country guy either but heās a really great player.
I got into hybrid picking by studying Eric Johnson and Brett Garsed, but studying Marshallās approach is what took my hybrid picking to another level. Integrating hybriding picking with sweeping (āswybridā) is tremendously powerful.
It helps to ensure Gambale rules for sweeping string changes. It helps to create naturally repeating coordinations in odd numbered groupings. Also, D U M is a natural cycle of length three, so itās immediately compatible with a lot of EDC stuff.
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Thank you @Tom_Gilroy for your detailed answer, I appreciate it. Desiderio uses this as a teaching device. As I was told, this is to encourage the main plucking motion to come from the PIP joint, while the pronounced extension at MCP is mainly to make sure, that the plucking motion is not a result of flexion at MCP. Once you have developed a feel for that motion, the flexion at MCP becomes minimal.
A similar approach (focus on the PIP joint while extending at MCP) is prevalent in flamenco, when it comes to Paco de Lucias picado technique.
I also would love to see some truly fast plucking from a good camera angle to verify any of these methods.
I do have a friend who studied with Desiderio a few years using that method, and he developed great technique during that time. He also uses this method in his teaching, and his students are remarkably good. Unfortunately, anecdotes arenāt evidence. I appreciacte you taking your time to answer in such detail Tom!
I will stop now derailing this thread from its original purpose any further.
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Youāre very welcome.
A pluck through primary action of the PIP is good. The primary flexor of the PIPs is flexor digitorum superficialis (FDS). FDS usually has separate muscle bellies for each digit, meaning the individual digits have some (not total) freedom from eachother. Interestingly, itās reasonably common for people not to have a FDS tendon to the 4th finger.
Itās the specific combination of DIP flexion with MCP extension that I have a problem with. The muscle activation is fundamentally problematic.
How you actually teach people how to do these things without giving an anatomy lecture is something Iām still trying to figure out.
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I just realized some things
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I can play ascending ideas pretty easily high tempos but when I descend it gets sloppy
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9ās are crazy awesome for rock but definitely harder on your right hand
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