Whats a good exercise for descending usX and DSX
I think you found my 27 year old problem with my right hand
This is really weird for me to do and I am trying hard but it’s not natural for me.
I think this may really help with my alternate picking.
I have a feeling once I find it it will feel like riding a bike right. It’s a form you go into
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Well let’s give credit to the man himself 
Everything I know about picking is because I’ve spent tons of time on Troy’s amazing platform. He really did crack it, and he’s continually researching and trying to learn more just in case he’s missed anything. Crosspicking and wrist based motions in general is the most recent thing he’s cracked. I’m definitely glad I could help get you the info you need though
Yeah I’ve heard Troy call the various picking motions ‘modes’ or ‘forms’ or something like that. I think, at least for me, the form that I used to get my foot in the door for crosspicking definitely felt really strange. I don’t need that exact setup anymore but it really helped to get started. Particularly the ‘flat’ palm and the slight bend (extension) in the wrist.
Since you seem to have a boatload of cool licks and phrases already, I’d just say try to adapt some of those (i.e. re-finger) so that you have to change strings after downstrokes (DSX) or upstrokes (USX) depending which you are practicing. I guess that may be tough though since you probably know your phrases so well, I’d bet you don’t even think about picking. Turning them into something else might be more work than learning something new. I can tab you up some sequency-type stuff in case it helps.
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So awesome of you brother appreciate all the kind words too yeah honestly I have never thought about picking until I hit this roadblock
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A Quick answer to this from a former classical guitarist:
This is actually not a problem. I know of several rather progressive „schools“ of technique, who emphasize that plucking motion, and use it as a teaching tool.
One such example for classical guitar would be Aniello Desiderio, who also teaches this to his students.
@Tom_Gilroy I am curious though, since you are very knowledgeable about this stuff. Where do you see a problem in this?
Here are 2 Dminor descending runs, one USX the other DSX.
I’d definitely encourage you to do your own thing since you obviously have an amazing vocabulary already. Maybe those will help give you some ideas to do more ‘musical’ things and still get the benefits of single escape playing. Also noteworthy is that any completely USX phrase can be with DSX, just start on an upstroke instead of a downstroke. The inverse is true as well.
One other huge leap forward for me that I learned on here is @Tom_Gilroy’s amazing research on left hand efficiency. Most fast things I do now, I try as hard as I can to use these “Efficient Digital Cycles” and I made sure to use them on the above tabs.
Check this out in your spare time:
There’s a few factors.
Any flexion at the DIPs implies that flexor digitorum profundus (FDP) is engaged, as it is the sole flexor of that joint. FDP is an interesting muscle. It is by far the strongest finger flexor and is responsible for the majority of grip strength, however the FDP tendons of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th digits all come from a common muscle belly, meaning independent FDP action for these digits is impossible. Moreover, FDP has an unusual innervation. The radial side of the muscle (including the muscle belly for the index finger) is innervated by a branch of the median nerve while the ulnar side of the muscle in innervated by the ulnar nerve. However, there is overlap, both nerves result in activation of the middle finger, and trying to activate FDP for the middle finger results in the entire muscle being activated.
What this all means, essentially, is that if FDP is activated (especially for the middle finger), it’s activated for every finger. This results in a greater level of background tension, and to move the fingers with FDP activated requires all other muscles involved to work harder.
If that isn’t bad enough, extension at the MCPs requires the activation of extensor digitorum communis (EDC). The EDC extensor tendons all arise from a common muscle belly. If we activate EDC, it is activated for all.
We also have an extensor for the index finger (extensor digiti indicis) and for the fourth finger (extensor digiti minimi). EDI is usually has some degree of freedom from EDC, but the tendon for EDM is usually connected to the EDC tendons of the 3rd and 4th fingers, and quite often totally fused. EDM is a very small, weak muscle.
What this essentially means, is that if we activate FDP and EDC together, we have no facility to move our fingers in opposition to each other. They can only move as a unit.
Moreover, FDP and EDC are antagonists. Requiring EDC to activate in conjunction with FDP is forcing EDC to pull against the most powerful flexor. This will result in greater EDC fatigue.
Now, we have the issue of how we return to our neutral position after this plucking action. We can’t use either FDP or EDC to facilitate this, they were involved in the plucking action itself.
There are exactly two possibilities. We can simply cease the activation of both FDP and EDC, letting our hand return to rest. That’s fine, but it’s going to be speed limited. The other option is to recruit the lumbrical muscles, which flex the MCP joints and extend the PIPs. If using all fingers as a unit, this isn’t so bad, but we cannot use this to return individual fingers to neutral while holding others away. Lumbricals are small and weak, and forcing them to oppose both FDP and EDC (which again, would need to be activated for all fingers) would be forcing them to work at a huge disadvantage. Moreover, the lumbricals arise from the FDP tendons, so FDP activation impacts lumbrical function.
If we’re limiting our use of hybrid picking to unit movement of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers, or some subset of them letting the others come along for the ride, this movement could work to some degree, though it wouldn’t be ideal. However, if trying to use multiple fingers in hybrid picking and attempting to use them in non-unitary fashion, I am comfortable saying that this movement pattern is a problem.
I’ve given a few videos of Aniello Desiderio a cursory watch through. The camera angles aren’t ideal, but I can’t see him actually doing this at any point. Perhaps its use is situational and I just haven’t seen that situation, or maybe this is another example of an excellent guitar player (and he is a truly excellent player) who simply does not do what he thinks he does.
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FWIW, in my classical training (technique was taught to me by Julian Gray of the Peabody Conservatory), he had me only ever use the MCP joint. All other joints were to be ‘firm’ but not tension-ey. He specifically told me not to ‘pluck’. I never once questioned anything he taught me since he had the reputation of being one of the most respected instructors in the country.
It’s most likely a picking hand posture thing (in classical, the only ‘anchor’ is the forearm resting on the edge of the guitar body) but I could never do the classical motion when hybrid picking on electric guitar. I always felt it to be more of a plucking motion (though still primarily driven from the MCP joint). I haven’t hybrid picked in ages but I made this video for some thread on hear a while back
Right or wrong, that was how I hybrid picked Definitely different than the classical motion I use.
You have a litte bit of hyperextension at the MCP joint of your 4th finger for both hands. It’s minor, but it’s an unecessary activation of your EDM muscles.
Overall though, that hybrid picking motion looks good to me.
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Ha, you’re right I do! Fretting hand, doesn’t surprise me at all. I have a horrible case of flying pinky to the extent that I think I may have sustained some permanent damage on that finger. Either through improper technique, or PLENTY of finger jam injuries as a child and teenager on the basketball courts. I think I’ve posted about this before (maybe even directly to you) but my ring/pinky independence is just awful on my fretting hand. I’ve tried all sorts of things to correct it, nothing works. My right hand has way better independence between those fingers and I’ve never even trained it. Your fretting hand principle research was so nice because it helped me see that I shouldn’t even care. There are almost no phrases I play were I need ring/pinky in a fast sequence. I can always avoid it by instead using middle/ring or middle/pinky.
Now, the hyperextension on my right hand interests me. There’s no way either of my classical teachers would have let that slide and I know I don’t do that when I play classical. So it must be the consequence of something a little off with my picking hand, maybe only when hybrid picking. Minor or not, all these little extra tensions do add up. Other than cliffs of dover and some string skipping patterns I do with octave displacement, I can’t say I hybrid pick much. Maybe that will be my next little venture. I’ll be sure to keep an eye on that pinky when I do. Thanks for the critique!
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Honestly, I think this is such an important shift in perspective.
I wasted a lot of time practicing “finger independence” exercises. They don’t work, they can’t work. At best they just don’t translate to actual playing, at worst they force you to fight your own anatomy and risk injuring yourself with absolutely no benefits.
Yes, the little tensions add up. Personally, I would aim to eliminate it, but I hybrid pick all the time.
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Hmmm back in my formative years, there was a time period where part of my daily routine was a Rusty Cooley slur exercise that involved whole step slurs between frets 12 and 14, all strings, ascending and descending. Then it went down the neck one fret at a time until you got to slurs between frets 1 and 3. Pretty hellacious stretch down there. I wonder if this contributed to my problems. I don’t remember any pain, but it wasn’t comfy.
Who should I check out if I wanted to take the hybrid plunge? I know Marshall Harrison does some cool hybrid things. Brad Paisley is probably my favorite guitarist (just his overall sound and style…and I don’t even really like country music that much lol!). He hybrid picks a lot but I know he’s not in the same league with the elite (still a fantastic player though. Phenomenal tone too).
I think Rusty’s stretching is probably too extreme for a lot of people, and probably requires some degree of hypermobility. You can certainly develop flexibility, but the joints themselves can only go so far.
Brad Paisley is a great choice for hybrid picking. I’m not a country guy either but he’s a really great player.
I got into hybrid picking by studying Eric Johnson and Brett Garsed, but studying Marshall’s approach is what took my hybrid picking to another level. Integrating hybriding picking with sweeping (“swybrid”) is tremendously powerful.
It helps to ensure Gambale rules for sweeping string changes. It helps to create naturally repeating coordinations in odd numbered groupings. Also, D U M is a natural cycle of length three, so it’s immediately compatible with a lot of EDC stuff.
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Thank you @Tom_Gilroy for your detailed answer, I appreciate it. Desiderio uses this as a teaching device. As I was told, this is to encourage the main plucking motion to come from the PIP joint, while the pronounced extension at MCP is mainly to make sure, that the plucking motion is not a result of flexion at MCP. Once you have developed a feel for that motion, the flexion at MCP becomes minimal.
A similar approach (focus on the PIP joint while extending at MCP) is prevalent in flamenco, when it comes to Paco de Lucias picado technique.
I also would love to see some truly fast plucking from a good camera angle to verify any of these methods.
I do have a friend who studied with Desiderio a few years using that method, and he developed great technique during that time. He also uses this method in his teaching, and his students are remarkably good. Unfortunately, anecdotes aren‘t evidence. I appreciacte you taking your time to answer in such detail Tom!
I will stop now derailing this thread from its original purpose any further.
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You’re very welcome.
A pluck through primary action of the PIP is good. The primary flexor of the PIPs is flexor digitorum superficialis (FDS). FDS usually has separate muscle bellies for each digit, meaning the individual digits have some (not total) freedom from eachother. Interestingly, it’s reasonably common for people not to have a FDS tendon to the 4th finger.
It’s the specific combination of DIP flexion with MCP extension that I have a problem with. The muscle activation is fundamentally problematic.
How you actually teach people how to do these things without giving an anatomy lecture is something I’m still trying to figure out.
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I just realized some things
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I can play ascending ideas pretty easily high tempos but when I descend it gets sloppy
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9’s are crazy awesome for rock but definitely harder on your right hand
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Crazy right!! Huge eye opener for me too!!
Amazing!!! It’s so cool to know these motions now!! It’s going to take a bit but it’s super exciting!!
Where is the video your talking about
Yep. I heard about Troy in 2016 but I didn’t really take the plunge until about 2020. At that point I’d already been playing, really actively (music major in college, failed pro music career lol) for about 25 years. I wasn’t as good as you or anything, but I could ‘play’. I’ve overhauled my picking entirely. I feel like a beginner in ways since the picking I’m doing now doesn’t resemble the way I used to pick at all. It’s coming together though! and yes, it is really exciting! I’m close to the point with some of these motions that they are just ‘happening’ and I don’t have to think about them. I think in another couple years I’ll be a brand new player I am just a hobbyist though.
It’s up a ways in this thread. Here it is again:
If you mimic exactly how Troy sets up, you’ll either do the correct motion, or your string hop. Hand placement, pick grip, pick exposure, everything. I tried to just do that, and use that form to play stuff that required escapes in both directions. It was unlike any setup I had ever done before. Now I don’t have to use that exact setup. In that short cross picking clip I posted I think my grip and hand placement are a little different than his, for example. But using that video as a starting point really helped me. It really helped me feel that correct motion. It ‘feels’ very much just like straight up and down, even though the motion is obviously slightly curved. I think a lot of people try too hard to make that curve happen and it becomes string hopping.
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