New to forum - feedback and a couple questions

Introduce Yourself
#24

I’ll ruin the surprise for you - it suuuuucks, lol. Your 3rd and 4th fingers have very poor independence because they share one or more tendons (I forget I’m afraid, not my area of expertise) to cover certain parts of motion, so you’re basically firing muscles twice as fast to pedal here as you would be 1-2-3. You hit fatigue VERY fast.

(EDIT - you in the rhetorical sense, not you specifically. There’s nothing specially wrong with YOUR 3-4 finger independence, over and above what’s wrong with all of ours)

#25

Him and @Pepepicks66 both. That dude is FAST lol! I couldn’t believe it when he said 1 3 4 was no slower for him. Can’t argue with the evidence in his videos though :slight_smile:

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#26

Hey everybody.

Sorry, I’ve been away from this forum for a while. I’ll be able to write something of a response to this thread tomorrow.

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#27

I’m quoting both you guys at the same time. So is the implication just for those pedal licks or in general because I have always just used 134 for everything, including pedals and I can’t imagine it being done any other way now, because that’s how I thought most people did those and that’s how I learned to do them and how I grilled them for years.

#28

Okay tried 123, can’t do it to save my life I don’t know how the hell you guys do that. 134 all the way baby! It just feels natural to me, not fatiguing at all. I’ll have to work on 123 though, I now see that as a week point that maybe needs attention

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#29

@Fossegrim That’s very unusual, the thought of doing whole tone lines between 3 and 4 sounds hard, but if that’s what you’ve always done then I’m sure you’re used to it.

#30

That is interesting! What about 1 2 4? Is that relatively the same as your 1 3 4?

#31

Like I said, I’m not sure when it was I started doing that, all I remember is that I bought intense rock 1 and Paul mentioned that he does that. I thought “hey, I do that too”. So I don’t know if I subconsciously got that from him, or I always did that, it wasn’t ever something I noticed until I saw that. There’s so much I never used to think about. How I held the pick, right hand etc…. Until I started buying those goddamned REH Paul Gilbert and saw how he was doing things.

#32

I use 124 more, or interchangeably. I think it all depends on what’s easier to grab at any given time.

#33

Thanks to all for the help and discussion. I have tried 134 vs 124 for a variety of patterns. I did find the latter to be somewhat easier to learn new patterns vis vis getting them up to speed, but overall, once I figured these out, I did not notice much difference other than fatigue, but I am not a shredder so would not sustain any of the 134 patterns for any period of time. l think having the 134 in the arsenal also helps one shift up and down the neck at times easier as well. I tried Joe’s finger posture and my left and right hands are the same with pinky fingers straight and they don’t move much with a tighter grip, so I am wondering if you (Joe) might have a Dupuytren’s contracture in that hand that is contributing? I was always taught early to use my pinky and even though a took a few years off, well many, I found that playing was like riding a bike. However, I am sure if I had kept playing my ability would be waaay better than it is today.

Kudos to Troy for this website because I changed the way I hold my pick (way better control) and his information and all your feedback did help me to finally move forward learning and playing faster lines. Major hoot. In particular, I think making a cognitive adjustment (I practiced playing as fast as I could “in my head”—“really” helped to get mentally used to playing fast if you will), playing in speed bursts and then building up the length of lines incrementally really helped a lot. I had previously tried to start slow and go faster after attaining accuracy at a given level and that just did not work after reaching a given speed. Of course this varied depending on complexity of lines played, but being aware of how and where to escape was huge, and I was able to quickly identify where and why I had previously been stuck.

From a cognitive motor control/learning perspective, this all can clearly be learned, but as Troy said in a previous post, if one pays attention to what feels smooth and easy to you, these helper movements evolve in a variety of ways (depending maybe on who initially taught you, or how you figured out, how to hold your hand, pick etc.) without awareness. This is clear from the various picking styles of folks he interviewed and who were pretty much clueless to how they were playing. In this regard, Troy’s research is invaluable in helping folks learn.

I will post a separate note with some articles on aging and speed. I was not a motor control guy, but my lab used to be next to one, so am a little privy to how they think. Plus, there is a cognitive component to everything…

Sorry for the long post…cheers, michael

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#34

Hi everybody.

I’d like to clear up some confusion regarding the (3 4) combination, much of which I’m sure comes from my own failure to communicate these ideas clearly in my past threads.

First, I want to say that I believe that there are contexts where the using the (3 4) combination is valuable, and even specific situations where the (3 4) combination is the best feasible option. I do not advocate that anybody discard the (3 4) combination entirely. I never have and I’m sure I never will.

It is, however, a simple anatomical fact that fingers are not independent of each other. No amount of training can overcome our anatomy. There are limitations on what our hands are capable of due to our anatomy. As we move towards the limits of our own anatomical potentials, it becomes necessary to acknowledge those limits.

The (3 4) combination suffers because the 3rd and 4th fingers are strongly dependent on each other and because of the relative difference in finger length. In most fretting postures, using the 3rd and 4th fingers together requires that the 3rd finger be flexed significantly more than the 4th finger (4th finger significantly more extended).

The finger flexors are not independent. In particular flexor digitorum profundis, which is the sole flexor of the distal interphalangeal joints (DIPs) is a mass action muscle. We cannot flex one of our DIPs without the engagement of the full group.

If we adopt a fretting posture where the DIP of the 3rd finger is flexed, flexor digitorum profundis is necessarily engaged. The 4th finger has a dedicated extensor (extensor digiti minimi), which must engage to create the relative difference in extension in the 4th finger.

Extensor digiti minimi must constantly pull against the strength of the engaged flexor digitorum profundis. Extensor digiti minimi is a small, weak muscle, while flexor digitorum profundis is the strongest muscle of the forearm, and the muscle chiefly responsible for gripping strength.

In most fretting postures, using the (3 4) combination creates a higher baseline of tension throughout the hand and forearm than other combinations.

Now, to move the fingers to make fretting actions, we must alternate between flexing the 3rd finger while extending the 4th finger and extending the 3rd finger while flexing the 4th finger.

The flexor digiti minimi tendon fuses to the extensor digitorum communis tendons of the 3rd and 4th finger. The result is that this alternation demands constant muscular engagement, against an already heightened background of muscular tension. This is unsustainable and results in extensor fatigue very quickly.

The greater the relative length difference between the 3rd and 4th fingers, and the greater the anatomical dependence, the more severe this problem becomes.

It is possible to adopt a fretting posture which reduces this issue noticeably. This is done by “skewing” the fretting posture so that the tips of fingers (as much as is possible) point “along” the string towards the bridge rather than inline with the frets.

This posture is very noticeable in Paul Gilbert’s playing, and I’ve noticed that @Pepepicks66 who is also very comfortable with (3 4) combinations tends to default to a heavily skewed posture also. It’s also somewhat similar to a fretting posture used in much of Allan Holdsworth’s playing. It’s certainly not wrong, but it does have some very definite disadvantages also. ​

In addition to this particular posture, Paul Gilbert has significantly larger hands than I have. Reliable measurement indicates his 3 to 4 length ratio is about 1.1, while mine is 1.3. This seems a significant variation to me.

I’d also like to clarify that the (3 4) limitation most clearly manifests when alternating between the 3rd and 4th finger to perform new fretting actions, therefore demanding that the fingers move simultaneously in opposing directions. Most players who favour (3 4) combinations simply do not do this, with most fretting sequences involving either lifting/pulling the 4th finger to “reveal” a note of the same string that was previously fretted by the 4th finger, or sequences which do not involve simultaneous opposing movements, as @Drew discussed above.

If anybody has any questions or comments regarding my thoughts or findings on these issues, I’m happy to address them.

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#35

Hey thanks, @Tom_Gilroy!

For my part, I wasn’t advocating abandonment of 3 4 and I never was under the impression you were advocating that either. I meant for more for me. I’ve spent years trying make those 2 fingers work better together. I fully understand your research is in the context of "For the fastest humanly possible motions (a la Lane), 3 4 is no good). I’m talking about very average tempos. My 3 4 combination is so much weaker than any others that I find it nearly unusable. After years of exercises to address it, I’ve chosen to abandon it. I think that’s why I connected so strongly with your EDC findings. Even outside of that “fastest possible” context, it’s quite useful to me and makes me feel less embarrassed about my lack of development :slight_smile:

I do think I have something clinical going on with those 2 fingers. It’s never really limited me in things I play regularly. Just something I thought I should do since I swallowed all the dogma of “Thou shalt practice all weaknesses”. So I spent quite a bit of time playing non musical exercises. During that time I saw increased control of every finger combination except 3/4. I either did something very wrong, or there is a physical limitation that is unique to me.

It’s all conjecture I guess and I’m not interested in actually getting examined lol As I said, the limitation on my playing has been non existent.

Thanks for the great explanation though, I always enjoy reading your posts. Hope you’ve been doing well!

#36

Tom, thanks for the detailed explanation. Very helpful. I will be paying more attention to that combination in my own playing. I wonder if a lot of the shredders naturally gravitated to avoiding 3 4 at speed because of this limitation. FYI, in a separate post, but somewhat in line with fingering, I was hoping someone would respond, but they have not. I was learning the E Johnson diminished four lick for practice and had a question regarding how you all might finger that. Troy is too fast even at reduced speeds for me to tell how he is making a transition at notes 9 to 12.

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#37

I’m aware of that, I know you’ve read my writing very carefully and put significant time into studying my ideas. You’re probably the most vocal advocate for my research here and I genuinely appreciate your enthusiasm.

However, I haven’t posted here in a while and others may not be so familiar with my stance, so I felt it important to clarify.

Ultimately, each of us have to decide which strategies we feel are most suited to our own individual progress to our own individual goals. As I’ve written before, Shawn Lane overcame the limitations of (3 4) mostly by not using it.

It’s very possible you have a unique physical limitation, there’s more variation in the anatomy of the hands and forearms among people than I would have initially suspected.

I’ve spent more time practicing “finger independence” than most too. I think my (3 4) is good, but I feel I’ve essentially realized my potential with the combination, that it’s noticeably inferior to my other combinations and that it is inherently more stressful and fatiguing. I could struggle in vain to overcome this imbalance, or I can accept that it’s natural and use the combination where and when it is appropriate.

I can assure you, I’ve noticed much more significant development in my fretting hand capability since adopting the latter viewpoint.

Totally, why dwell on something that doesn’t really limit you, and which you can’t do much to change anyway? Exploit what you’re body is already capable of to the fullest degree.

I’ve been well, I’ve just been a little more focused on other things lately.

You’re welcome, glad to help.

I believe that this is the case for most. Some naturally develop the skewed Gilbert-type fretting posture and use (3 4) more frequently, but there some limitations and disadvantages with that form also.

I’ll have a look and answer this tomorrow, I won’t have time this evening.

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#38

Great to see you back around here, man, and I hope you’ve been well!

I also definitely don’t want to give the impression - and hope I wasn’t coming across as - that I’m advocating for a complete abandonment of 3-4 combinations - I stll do it a ton, and honestly for something like (high E and B):

|----------12-14-15-14-12-------|
|-12-13-15----------------15-13-|

…I’ll virtually always play that top string 1-3-4 because, at least at the speeds I’d ever likely play this as a looped run or something, it’s never going to become a limiting factor for me.

But, something like: 12-15-14-15-12-15-14-15 while most fingerings here seem kind of awkward to me (this isn’t a phrase I really do in my own playing), 1-3-4 seems to fall apart fastest, although as you note more of a canted or skewed wrist position helps a bit here. 1-2-3, I think my 2-3 finger independence is a little under-developed and worse than average but it does do a little better, and 1-2-4 feels oddly cramped, but especially with a more skewed wrist position (which seems to allow the pinkie to move a ittle more naturally overall, for some reason - if I had to bet, probably nurture over nature and just a lot more practice in this orientation) the actual motions occur pretty smoothly.

I’ve gradually come to favor 1-2-4 over 1-3-4 for whole-step-whole step patterns - 5-7-9 for example - simply because both seem about as convenient for most runs but 1-2-4 has clear advantages in certain situations so it’s just one less thing to think about. No real downside, IMO, when both can be used just as easily.

#39

1,3,4 has the advantage for some double whole step things though like the dreaded Lydian pattern (4’s 6’s patterns etc…)

I just do what seems natural in most cases. 1,3,4 for whole half patterns. 1,2,4 for half whole patterns, and either for whole whole depending on what it is. I don’t find the use of 1.3.4 any more fatiguing than anything else. It may likely be that I just got used to it.

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#40

I do think that you can close the differences here a fair amount with practice, and I think I saw you mentioning spending a lot of time copping aspects of Gilbert’s orientation and technique at some point and his fretting hand orientation definitely makes 1-3-4 stuff a bit easier, as Tom noted. I only got into Gilbert later on in my playing “career,” but by chance arrived at a pretty similar hand orientation, and I also don’t find 1-3-4 fingering AS fatiguing as some.

But, try these two licks, on any string:

|-15-12-14-15-14-12-15-12-14-15-14-12-|

and

|-15-12-13-15-13-12-15-12-13-15-13-12-|

I’ll bet you a virtual beer that the second one is one you can play faster and easier than the first. For one or two reps the differences are not huge… but the 1-3-4 pattern gets hard to maintain pretty fast.

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#41

There are definitely situations where using (3 4) has some advantages. In my own experience, I’ve found that using (3 4) with the heavily skewed/canted “Gilbert” posture tends to simplify many of the fretting sequences in Paul Gilbert patterns for chunking purposes, and reduces the feeling of position shifting.

If you adopt a fretting posture that accommodates (3 4) and your vocabulary avoids the situations where the weaknesses of the combination are most evident, you can certainly achieve some excellent results.

Most people don’t find (1 2 4) and (1 3 4) equally natural for whole/whole. This suggests to me very strongly that your natural fretting posture resembles the skewed/canted “Gilbert” posture.

Based on what I understand, I suspect it’s more that your fretting posture accommodates the combination and that you simply don’t play the kinds of sequences where the weaknesses of the (3 4) combination are most apparent.

I have a solid (3 4) combination, I’ve put a lot of work into developing it. I can play at Paul Gilbert speeds on Paul Gilbert patterns, from the Paul Gilbert posture and not experience any significant fatigue.

However, I can play Shawn Lane type patterns using (1 2 3) and (1 2 4) at woopledybloop nonsense speeds for hours and I experience no fatigue at all. If I try to substitute (1 3 4) into those sequences, with the “parallel” fretting posture that those sequences usually require, I can manage just a few reps at those speeds before my extensors fatigue.

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#42

Makes me wonder if you can train that. I do a good amount of extensor exercises, so maybe that’s why I don’t notice any issues?

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#43

As a bystander, I’d say even if he could, would there be a benefit other than personal accomplishment? lol! Putting in a lot of work to do something a different way than they can already do pretty well some other way…I dunno. There are only so many hours in a day haha!

That’s a little hypocritical of me to say though. I was talking to Tommo in another thread about one of the things I enjoy most is just challenging myself. I rarely just sit back and ‘play’ anymore. I spend all my time working on things that I can’t quite play. These are actual phrases from solos I enjoy, not just boring exercises. Watching the advancement. Once I can play the “thing” I usually toss it out and move onto the next “thing”. I’m sure it sounds a little sad, but that’s what’s fun for me. I used to play in a band but I ditched that whole scene years ago. I just play in my basement now. No one hears me (thank god).

I think I’m an outlier though. Most people probably want to play music. Songs, all the way through, maybe even jam with other people. I’m just a selfish basement noodler :metal: :metal: :metal:

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