New to forum - feedback and a couple questions

Introduce Yourself
#1

Hi,
I took lessons at 10 yo and played some rock and jazz until about 20, then quit for 30 years due to school, work and life. My son who was in conservatory for classic/jazz got me back into it. I took jazz lessons for a year and learned enough theory to learn tunes I liked on my own.

I have been trying to build speed, in general, but then also to play certain tunes, like the triplets in j kriesberg’s south of everywhere at 185 bpm. Some of this is a combo of cross and sweep picking that is tough but I am getting there. I will post a passage because I would like to know those of you who can shred would approach this.

The site has been very helpful, but constructively, a bit wordy, and the information could be categorized better. I had to dig deep to find the main points. I ended up summariziug in notes.

I am a primary upward slant picker, but found that I had naturally used downward pick slanting as well. I am new to sweeping, and for me that would essentially be economy picking. It does not feel smooth at this point, and I prefer to switch my angle. My overall sense is that whatever works for you is correct after watching the videos. In this regard, I learned all the scales as 2 and 3 note per string scales, and I am wondering if I should go back and pick up the 3 note per string scales. I am not sure if it will increase my speed significantly after watching Troy shred regardless of what he was playing.

Being a retired neuroscience guy, I am curious about how long it takes to develop speed, especially for older guys like me? I assume everyone is wired a bit differently, but it is an interesting question. In this regard, I know that professional older musicians can be just as fast or faster than a 20 yo because they have been playing for many years. I also know that cognitively, everything slows by a factor of 1.5 starting at about 60, and aside from a tapping test, that stresses the importance of knowing where you are going on the fretboard.

I would like to see more on left hand technique if possible because my sense is, is that this is where a lot of folks hit a wall. Maybe incorrect thumb position, picking fingers up too high off the fret board etc. I have been experimenting here.

Anyway, thanks again Troy for your site. Much appreciated and my sense is that you studied engineering and are a scientist at heart.

I will post the triplets I am working on soon.

#2

Welcome @mps504! Great to have Neuroscientist in here, looking forward to reading your posts!
I will quickly answer your most salient question and come back to your other points later :slight_smile:

Provocative (way too short) answer: unless you are going for some sort of world record, it should take no time at all to develop “musically useful” speed. Of course, it will take time to harness that speed properly.

Longer answer: I’ll link three videos that — I think — explore the issue in much more detail. Let me know if any questions arise from that :slight_smile:

#3

I would say this is a difficult question to answer, and one that at best could really just be roughly generalized if it even could really. You would have to set up a study. I think as far as the physical aspect, not much is hindered unless you have some underlying age related pathology that affects this like severe arthritis. Recent studies in muscle hypertrophy have even shown that someone over 60 has the same potential for muscle cell hypertrophy as someone who is 40, and that the downward slope of that potential isn’t very steep afterwards.

The cognitive aspect is the big one, because it’s not just about the pure physical aspect of this, its the signaling both hands to play in sync, and on top of that playing something that has some sort of creative or artistic meaning. So both coordination and memory retention really do come into play heavily, and those two things may have a negative age correlation. By how much generally is tricky. Case by case may be a better way to approach it. Just convince yourself you will never be affected by it, and you’ll be fine.

Being able to play fast doesn’t just mean being able to move your picking hand fast or pick escapes - there’s a lot more to it than that. This forum unfortunately tends to hyper focus a little too much on that aspect.

Are we over-focussing on moving the pick fast?
Are we over-focussing on moving the pick fast?
#4

4 posts were split to a new topic: Are we over-focussing of moving the pick fast?

#5

2 of my favorite threads on here deal extensively with fretting hand and that wall you describe:

Granted, they are not part of Troy’s platform but since they exist on his forum they are an extension of it.

They require a decent time investment but there are a lot of great concepts in there. Like Troy’s pick technique findings, I’ve never heard of anyone else breaking down fretting hand speed barriers like @Tom_Gilroy does. He has some good videos on the other fretting principles you seemed interested in. I’ll see if I can dig those up for you.

EDIT: here are the other fretting principles videos from Tom:

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#9

Wasn’t just about speed, it was also about the possible age related neurological aspect of it. In which case the bare bones physical aspect of playing fast isn’t the biggest issue IMHO.

#10

Great discussion guys, some valid points from all and good idea @tommo to split off for a new thread.

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#11

Thank you. Very interesting. lt makes me wonder about whether one should use 123 fingers instead of 134 for, for example, fretting frets 5, 7, 8. I was always taught to not ignore the development of the pinky finger, but your posts makes sense. I think the other factor here is whether one is playing lower vs higher on the neck. Lower on the neck there is more of a stretch for a 123 use of fingers.

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#12

I guess when I was referring to speed, I meant picking and fretting. I can pick 16th notes at 200 bpm pretty comfortably, more so with UWPS than DWPS, but they are pretty close. Using the three notes per string sequences provided by Troy, I can, in intermittent bursts, finger six notes per string that fast, but it is tough. I cannot yet sustain that or shift position. My accurate speed across strings is more like 150, but it depends on what I am fingering. Three notes per string within four frets on a string is good, but not within 5 frets, and I think this is because I have never done it. I am working on stretching my 1 and 2 fingers. Thus, my other question regarding whether I should add the three frets per string to my scales, in particular because that also helps reduce the number of two way picking transitions (my preference vs sweeping, so far). It also seems like most who can play with speed use three notes per string, but……then there is Troy who can play anything fast. That says to me, don’t waste time learning three notes per string but concentrate on picking mechanics for the mixed 2 and 3 note per string scales that I know? For the other older guys out there that are in my shoes, once I figure out a plan (2 vs 3) I will track my progress and report back. Maybe I could try both and see which one hits 185 bpm 16th notes first, which is my goal.

#13

To put it in context, Tom’s work has the backdrop of the idea that at the absolute fastest speeds, this is a requirement for most people. Still, I’ve noticed all the Yngwie fast licks in his REH video (which are far beneath Shawn Lane speeds), Yngwie never uses 134.

and

Yngwie is of course both a monster and one of the most naturally intuitive players ever. He always chooses what feels easiest. I think it’s pretty telling that he had plenty of opportunities in both those licks to use 1 3 4 and never did it.

right we shouldn’t ignore it, just be aware of what it limits and why. The equally optimal cycle of using 124 includes the pinky. It’s just intentionally not pairing it with the ring finger.

This is actually more about wrist position. If you have a pretty neutral wrist, using 123 on should be really comfortable, even on the lowest frets

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I know there are tons of videos/posts in Tom’s work that I linked, but all this is addressed.

Best of luck with it! It’s been a game changer for me!

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#14

Yeah, Tom’s contributions to this board have been pretty eye big eye openers for me. Nothing to add here, just that those threads are great reading.

Actually, I guess one thing to add - that focusing on keeping my wrist as relaxed as possible while playing DOES seem to have made my fretting hand faster, which makes sense - by taking tension out of the whole system, the baseline amount of force needed to move any one joint in any one direction seems to drop quite a bit.

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#15

Random post in defense of 134 fingerings (what a strange thing to say): I’ve been able to get 134 as fast as I’ve been able to play. Developing it has helped me play things that otherwise would have not been possible. I think the only way to make things feel easier would be to follow the EDC method that Tom has posted about.

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#16

So, this is worth expanding on, I think…

1-3-4 is, if maybe not exactly optimal, not THAT un-optimal because the issue of independence between your 3rd and 4th finger isn’t that much of a big deal if they’re moving in sync. Something like 5-7-8-5-7-8 when played 134 is fairly efficent since the 3rd and 4th finger are moving in sync. I tend to use this finger combination myself.

Where you run into problems is when 3 and 4 are NOT moving together/close to, and start moving in different directions. Something like 5-7-8-7-8-5-7-8-7-8 is extremely taxing on your fretting hand because you’re forcing two fingers, 3 and 4, that share a lot of tendons and muscles, to move rapidly back and forth. I’ve definitely spent some time on 3-4-3 trills, but this is still much harder than a 1-3 or 1-4 finger trill.

So, I guess I’m saying as long as you’re tactical when you break away from “optimal” approaches, you can stay in the clear as long as you’re never pushing the reasons why those approaches are not optimal.

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#17

@Pepepicks66 and @Drew (or even @Tom_Gilroy, if you’re out there :slight_smile: ) I wonder if there’s something that gets a little “individual” about this. I’ve actually always really struggled with the ring/pinky combination on my fretting hand. The independence between the 2 is awful, and it’s not at all that I’ve ignored it! I’ve actually dedicated many hours with stretching exercises, trills etc. It used to be part of my daily routine, for years. I never made any progress to speak of.

Not sure if this gets my point across or not, but look at how if I keep each hand in a loosely closed fist and extend my pinky finger as far as possible, my dominant hand (where I’ve NEVER worked on finger independence between those 2 fingers) has so much more independence:

Right hand:

image

Left hand:
image

In that second image, if I were to try and extend any further with my pinky, my left hand ring finger starts coming along for the ride.

If I play all hammers over and over with 1 2 3 or 1 2 4, I can do 6’s at 150bpm. Not saying it’s super clean, but I can move my hands that fast. Not bad, right? If I try the same with 1 3 4, I can’t even do 6’s at 100bpm. I’ve tried various left hand approach angles too. It’s embarrassing. It makes me wonder if I’ve got some really weird anatomical thing with the tendons involved, or if I’ve injured myself over the years or something. Any action of fretting a note with my left had ring finger makes using the pinky finger almost uncontrollable. It can’t stretch or quickly engage/disengage to play a clean slur. No dice.

At some point, I gave up trying to improve this because I saw no progress and no reason to do it. I have pretty flexible and long fingers otherwise and I’ve yet to encounter a lick (that I’m interested playing) where I’d even need 1 3 4.

That’s probably another reason I’ve always loved Tom’s EDC research lol! For me, I literally have no other option!!! 1 3 4 is just a no go.

Lastly, I do recall Tom saying Paul Gilbert was sort of a special case because he has an unusual long pinky finger in relation to his ring finger, putting him in a better position for using 3/4 together.

#18

I think Paul especially (and probably Yngwie) have bigger hands. Paul has some pretty long digits so I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s part of it, but I think he even stated that this was the way he always did things even when younger so it just stuck.

This is kind of funny, but I have never really seen any one finger a 5,7,8 with the 1,2,3 fingers. I thought everyone used 1,3,4. I even use 1, and 4 for bar/power chords. I also use 1,3,4 for a two whole step fingering (5,7,9). I’m not sure why or when this started happening.

@joebegly im not sure how much of a disadvantage that puts your pinky, but I wouldn’t think that much, since you really don’t have to move it nearly as far as your picture in practice. That said, if you don’t need to use it anyway, I’m not sure how consequential it is.

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#19

My ring finger is probably the same as yours, trying to open it up more definitely feels weird so I don’t lol.

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#20

@Pepepicks66 and @Fossegrim that was just to illustrate how much less I have control over the left pinky (which I’ve worked a ton) compared to my right (which I’ve worked none).

I’ve been playing long enough to know when something just feels wrong, and ring and pinky on my fretting hand is that thing for me lol!!!

I’m the complete opposite. I can barely even make my ring/pinky span 2 frets so doing a W-W (5 7 9) is out of the question.

EDIT: also, @Fossegrim did you see the footage of Yngwie I posted here in this same thread?

He plays 5 7 8 with 1 2 3. He has plenty of places (even on the higher smaller) frets and he’s always doing 1 2 3.

I’d say for me, it doesn’t matter because I’ve resolved to not waste any more time on it. I’m interested if there’s something anatomical or physical injury. Something feels awfully wrong about it.

#21

Quoting this but replying to your whole post - I don’t have a great grasp on the musculature of the fretting hand and how that impacts independence, so I won’t try to speculate on nature vs nurture here - are certain combinations easier for some players because they’ve spent more time practicing them, because they just have slight anatomical differences, or because other aspects of their posture and technique make them a little easier (and, if so, how much of that itself is nature vs nurture and something they’ve worked on and thus shifted some of their default posture to optimize for it)… but, there certainly SEEMS to be some variation from player to player.

I discussed this with @Tom_Gilroy at one point too and he suspected part of why, well, let’s call them linear 1-3-4 patterns, where you’re using fingers 1, 3, and 4 in that sequence, and not trying to alternate “directions” if you will, but why that was something Gilbert seems to do more than most has a lot to do with the wrist angle he plays at allowing his hand to sort of open and close along the fretboard in ways that make that movement less awkward than it might otherwise be. Details are fuzzy, I’m probably butchering this… but it corresponds with my own experience, where my 3-4 independence seems better than average, particularly whenit’s 1-3-4 in sequence, whereas my 2-3 independence (via nature or nurture, unclear) is relatively weaker than average, and he and I seem to have broadly similar wrist orientations.

I guess that while I can play 1-3-4 1-3-4 patterns very nearly as fast as 1-2-4 1-2-4, I still don’t think I’m 100% there and the wheels definitely come off when it’s sopmething like 1-4-2-4 1-4-2-4 vs 1-4-3-4 1-4-3-4 so I’ve made a point of making it a habit to use 1-2-4 whenever it’s really feasible.

It’s funny, because that was one of those things where I’d never really given much thought to fretting hand choice while learning to play because I never really felt like that was something holding back my playing, but seeing as there are pretty clear anatomical reasons that ARE a factor here at higher speeds, I think it does make a lot of sense to reconsider here.

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Yngwie and Eric Johnson do this, though again in practice for purely “linear” motions I don’t know how much it matters. Somethingh like 5-8-7-8-5-8-7-8 though, you start looping that at speed, and it becomes exponentially harder to keep it clean and at tempo for more than a few seconds using fingers 1, 3, and 4.

Similar things happen with whole-step whole-step patterns - if you’re just ascending or descending linearly, while it seems it’s more of a factor for Joe, it’s not really a huge factor for me, and I used to default to that. I ended up switching though because it DOES allow you a little better finger independence and seems to be mechanically more efficient even if you’re not doing something like 5-7-9-7-9-7 5-7-9-7-9-7.

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#22

I’m not sure I have ever thought about that or tried it with pedal licks like that. I’ve always just used 1,3,4. Welp something else to try when I get home.

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#23

@joebegly i’ve seen hat REH video many times and for some reason never noticed. I did notice it in the way he frets the diminished arpeggios, but for some reason that’s the only thing that stuck.

I think part of why I went pinky heavy had to have been because of Paul Gilbert. I was a Gilbert nut in the mid 2000’s and I consciously and probably subconsciously tried to copy every visual aspect of his technique that I could. The problem with that I found is that some of it just works only for Paul.

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