Primary Motion - Am I USX or DSX?

Technique Critique
#1

I’m hoping to get ANY feedback on this clip as I’ve been through the Primer a few times and been really trying to figure out my Primary motion - but I’d love to hear any interpretation of my movement to help me start to narrow it down. It’s unclear to me what my primary movement is.

I don’t tend to start or practice phrases with upstrokes so I find them a bit more unusual in general but perhaps it’s something I’d find natural if I did it more. I’m mostly afraid that I’m string-hopping because I feel SO plateau’d with my speed & neither movement is WAY more natural than the other (as Troy mentioned IF neither way is significantly better than another) but I generally prefer to start w/a downstroke but that might be just because of how I’ve always practiced scales.

The video has both regular and slow motion versions of:

  1. Pentatonic (2 notes per string starting w/downstroke)
  2. Pentatonic (2 notes per string starting w/upstroke)
  3. Chromatic (4 notes per string starting w/downstroke)
  4. Chromatic (4 notes per string starting w/upstroke)

Video is here:

#2

I’d say this mostly looks like stringhopping, although it could probably transition to be DBX if you were to shorten the travel of the pick some.

Could you record an all-out trem speed video?

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#3

Hey @lexaunculpt1 I’m seeing DBX-ish strokes here but more on the string hopping side than the preferred kind of DBX. Especially on the clips where you start with an upstroke.

But DBX wouldn’t be necessary on 2 or 4 note per string runs like this.

Since you seem to be more comfortable starting with downstrokes you’d likely want to stick with USX.

Double check some of the animations/pics of USX in the Primer. If you’re having trouble conceptualizing it, try exaggerating the motions for a little bit —> Downstrokes plucking and then the pick coming to rest on the next string down, and upstrokes plucking and passing over all the strings like an airplane taking off. So the motion would be diagonal in relation to the fretboard, but with a pick slant.

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#4

Also, as an aside, I’ve never practiced anything starting with an upstroke. I may be out of the loop on that one, but I don’t think it’s necessary.

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#5

Thank you for the feedback! Yes - I think it’s hoppy too - It seems like it might be wonderful to be a DBX player but I think I will always end up just hopping instead of doing a proper DBX movement. I’ll try exaggerating the upwards escape (and downward trap) to try to program the movement a bit better!

#6

Yes - starting an upstroke on a downbeat is VERY counterintuitive to me… I am experimenting with that as a strategy because I just watched a Ben Eller video where he shows two different pentatonic scales and asserts that one will feel easier than the other and will help you to diagnose your pick escape as a result.

See here:

#7

As much as I love Ben Eller, this video in particular make’s me suspect that he isn’t completely up to date with all the CtC content :sweat_smile:

There’s a huge difference between someone assuming a DWPS or UWPS and actually having an efficient motion - just because your pickstrokes escape in a certain way doesn’t mean you’re doing it efficiently.

Also the pickslant is only a very small part of the picture, he calls EVH a DWPS-er but Eddie can achieve both USX and DSX wrist with only the slightest alteration.

He also says Andy Wood can do both but from what I recall he uses DBX for slower phrases and then DSX with a helper motion for anything faster that doesn’t conventionally work for DSX. He also says the same about Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin, but as far as I know 90% of what they do is DSX with swiping, I’m not sure if they also have helper motions?

The pentatonic scale might be a great way to diagnose your already efficient motion but in my case the pentatonic scale was one of the last things I managed to transfer my efficient motion to because of the rapid string changes. The majority of people asking these sorts of questions don’t have an efficient motion and for developing that I would suggest finding a working tremolo :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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#8

This is something that actually annoys a lot about many of those YouTube guitar teaching channels. They took that whole Pickslanting topic from back then when CTC first talked about it, ignore all the other aspects that since got discovered (like the motions that actually make it possible to do DSX, USX, DBX, etc) and still talk about it like Pickslanting is that one and only thing that matters.

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#9

Yes I think this is true. I’ve seen a few vids of his which were relatively recent, but certainly not up to date with recent developments… 🫤

EDIT - just to be clear, I’m in no way saying that Ben’s instructional material isn’t good. From what I’ve seen he does have some great tutorials on a wide range of topics.

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#10

I didn’t get deep into CtC until recently and I’ve actually been wondering what specifically has been changed/refined since the early days. My first thought was that it isn’t exclusively about Pickslanting but that pickslanting is a side effect of a better overall approach/technique. I’ve also watched the dart thrower videos as a way to approach my own “string hopping” problem and often wonder how that relates to the other videos - is it a new concept that negates the others or something that is another movement that someone might naturally prefer?

There are often videos where Troy mentions that they’ve fine tuned the content since it all started and some people got mixed up a bit in the early days - I’m often wondering what he’s talking about.

#11

There’s a pitfall here to keep in mind.

CtC is basically like, a mad scientist laboratory. Like, there is bleeding edge stuff just getting discovered (like the dart thrower motions) in relation to picking.

So things have and will change constantly.

Troy is still on his own journey himself. And will be forever. But you don’t have to be side by side with the ones paving the new paths. They pave new paths so others can follow along in their own time.

So @lexaunculpt1, us new guys (and girls) can get sidetracked trying to intellectualize things and pontificate (like I am doing now LOL) and end up not even on the original path any more.

For a lot of us the first steps should be pretty simple.

  1. Do the tap tests (almost solely to make sure you have the physical capability to move fast). Pretty much everyone will.
  2. Record and post a single open string tremolo video (as a TC ideally) then secondarily maybe as a forum post). No thinking, just as fast as possible without worrying about how messy it is.
  3. Let someone else tell you what they are seeing as far as what your efficient motion could be. Like, TC feedback should the end all be all at first. Then the more senior forum folks.
  4. Work on what they say until you own that motion.
  5. Learn and adopt other motions if you want to afterwards.

I think at this point you might be on #2. From your initial video it’s kind of obvious you’re fine with #1.
But I can’t tell what motion your body unconsciously moves to at high speed (that’s what the trem video should show us). Can’t assume it will be the same as your pentatonic examples above.

But I CAN tell you are still string hopping, and string hopping kind of gets eliminated right away when you start working on your first primary motions. So my suggestion is as Pepe and Jack mentioned earlier, post your tremolo videos as a TC. And after that post it here also. If you don’t have a trem video yet make one. that’s the very next step. :+1:

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#12

It’s for DSX players when they are doing even number of notes per string. It’s the only (without swiping) to get clean escapes and play things like 2nps pentatonics.

@lexaunculpt1 not trying to overwhelm you as you’ve gotten good advice (and lots of advice). My reaction to all your clips is that they are all string hopping. I don’t think they have DBX potential either, as they look like what we’ve seen from people who are trying to do DBX and just gotten frustrated. So working on this motion and trying to bring it up to speed are not going to be successful, you need to find a new motion entirely.

There was a suggestion on here to focus on making a straight line, but with a ‘diagonal’ path:

I think that’s the immediate homework for you. Also, you’re going to have to try playing things that are faster than the clips you are posting, even if it’s a little sloppy. You’re choosing speeds that are low enough that stringhopping ‘works’. You need to find a speed where string hopping becomes so fatigue inducing that you can’t complete more than a beat or 2 before it all falls apart. If you find that speed and pair it with an efficient motion that goes in a straight line (on a diagonal that it escapes in one direction only) you’ll be good to go.

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#13

So here’s a video I just shot of my tremolo. I shot a few and it seems like if I’m just trying to go AS fast as I can - my foreman tends to really lock so I can get tiny little movements and there is some tension. If I don’t fight for the speed - my forearm doesn’t step in quite as much and it’s at this slower speed but feels a bit more controlled and less tense.

Should I try this a different way or does this give you enough info?

#14

This is too slow, aim for 173bpm 16th notes at a minimum. You should be able to sustain this for at least 30secs without any tension, you just have to find a motion via lots of tweaking that allows you to do this :slight_smile:

Also definitely don’t fight for speed, a good way to describe this learning process would be “learning to play effortlessly”

#15

On a side note, I shot a 2nd video where I just don’t worry about anything and tremolo quickly with all kinds of garage spikes and clunkiness…

At the end of the video - it case it helps out a bit, I put in a regular speed and slow motion speed of the 6 note per string phrase. I’m trying to minimize my hand moving away from the body (the “hoppy” look to my eye) and keeping it mostly as a diagonal line…

#16

I think this is better. The motions look really tiny though and they don’t need to be.

I’d suggest intentional DSX. On the downstroke, you want the pick to travel slightly away from the guitar body. On the upstroke, let your pick come into contact with the G string (i.e. rest stroke). Think of it like a trampoline, having your pick hit the G string (but NOT SOUNDING It) and bounce off it.

For reference on the whole setup, try to do what Troy is doing here around the 0:50 mark, where he shows how to find a comfortable posture with a good range of motion, sans pick!!!

Then, try to do what Troy does here

He demos all three escapes…don’t worry about that, just try to do the DSX one, which he shows from 0:00 through about 0:50

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#17

Thank you SO much for the feedback. I know that I’ve gotten good feedback and I’ve read it like it’s scripture and tried to apply it. I’m super aware that I’m hopping (probably from years of playing and subconsciously not trusting that I won’t get tangled up so I developed a hop to compensate - and subsequently throttled myself).

I’ll try out what you are suggesting immediately. I guess the only question I have is why you suggest I try intentional DSX vs intentional USX? Again, I don’t know my movement but it seems like I prefer to escape on the upstroke.

Thanks again @joebegly you are incredible for all your help!! Massive respect to you!

#18

The faster motion looked like it was more DSX to me. If you think USX is more natural, then try Troy’s demos on that one, which are just a tad later in the video I’d linked.

I’d still recommend aiming for a ‘rest’ stroke because that can be a good indicator the motion is making a straight line. But, it can also confuse people that are more prone to DSX and they think they are doing DSX (or they’d like to). In this case, they are trying to make their downstrokes ‘bury’ thinking this will give them USX. When that happens, you get a mismatch that result in trapped playing or even more sting hopping as the player attempts to make the upstrokes escape.

#19

@jptk Thank you! Can you tell me what has changed since perhaps Ben’s pick slanting focus is now a bit dated from the newer information that’s available? I’ve been combing back and forth through the primary and trying to go back to areas where I feel like I need to re-explore and I know that the CtC is an ongoing investigation - but what are the latest developments that have made the previous information seem a bit dated?

#20

So I rewatched those videos you mentioned and I’m trying to see if I can minimize my wrist flying away from the body of the guitar so that I’m not doing the hopping - does this seem like a good straight/diagonal line or does it seem like it needs a different approach?

Thanks again for all the feedback!