Question in regards to my default picking style (Vinnie Moore DSX)

[irvingmarquez256]

I have known I am a primary elbow picker for a long time. For context I am 43, have been playing since age 14. I have blended some other mechanics over the years, there is some mixed escapes thrown in for example. But whenever the tempo ramps up, elbow picking with DSX and notable upward pick slant is what is most natural for me. I can do a forearm thing reasonably fast, but no question elbow is my fastest and most ingrained choice.

I am going through Cracking the Code materials as I am looking to figure out some next steps. There has long been dissatisfaction with my alternate picking. There are certainly things I can do reasonably well, but many things I can’t. Picking up the mandolin a bit more recently makes the dissatisfaction more prominent. I can compensate well enough on an electric. On an acoustic instrument I still sound decent, but the limits are much more clear. If want to have more freedom on the mandolin, it is clear something has to change.

At any rate, while watching Chapter 2, evaluating primary motion results, there is something that is nonetheless incongruent for me. It is mentioned that a common indicator for the DSX style is the preference to start with upstrokes for phrases (or that ultimately it should be easier to start with upstrokes). The trick for me is that it is definitely not. I have tried several times in the past, it never seems to go anywhere. It is like my brain refuses to let me start on an upstroke. If I sit and try to do pentatonics with upstrokes for example, it is just not happening.

My question: is this something that is likely to be corrected? If I keep at it, would starting on the upstroke likely click? I am thinking it is largely a matter of habit. For example as an alternative to starting with upstrokes I have become very fluent with economy upstrokes to get across strings as needed. Whereas I can’t do economy downstrokes. Sweep across all the strings with downstrokes, yes. But say the Yngwie or Eric Johnson type of economy picking with downstrokes, it just does not fit at all for me. I can do very similar things that they do but with economy upstrokes, leading me to have a lot of descending economy runs rather than ascending.

I don’t know if this is a common issue. Perhaps I just need to really sit with the starting on the upstroke thing and it and it will click. But it just seems jarring, as there is this principle that this should be easier. It is confusing why it isn’t when all the evidence suggests it should be easier. I suppose this is all part of a decision whether I need to completely retool my alternate picking technique, or whether there are flaws I need to fix in my existing technique and then make the most mileage out of it that I can.

[PickingApprentice]

Another option you could is to slip a hammer/pull off after the initial downstroke to send you into full dsx mode.

Or…

I have 2 issues I have been working on and had some success with improving - you never know it may be useful for you to. My issues are:
1 - launching into picking at speed even when starting on my preferred pick stroke downstroke
2 - I have a habit of anticipating upstrokes when outside picking (when requiring mixed escapes)

So you can imagine that starting on an upstroke is a double whammy of crapness.

So what I have spent time doing is trying ‘normalize’ that upstroke and try not to micromanage it at speed - the below method is predicated on already knowing that I have a fast workable motion because it uses a little bit of ‘bursting’, metronome use and not ‘starting with speed’ which are at odds with some of the CTC teachings are as far as starting out. I also chose to use the old 4-fret chromatic pattern because it is easy for my fretting hand (to take as many fretting issues out of the way) and forces the desired pickstroke on the string change, but I’m sure that you can use any patterns you like (pentatonics for example).

It works great as a bit of a warm up/reset. After doing it picking my normal mixed escapes alternate picking is smoother/faster/more accurate.

Apologies for the crappy video (low sound and lacklustre attempt) I’m aching because of Covid and trying not to cough whilst playing . Also, I started on a downstroke instead of up (oops!)

This was at 160bpm, but have managed to get it pushing 190 pretty clean.

Bursts

[tommo]

@PickingApprentice

it uses a little bit of ‘bursting’, metronome use and not ‘starting with speed’ which are at odds with some of the CTC teachings are as far as starting out.

I don’t think “bursting” is bad, but I think that a lot of people use it to try and “increase their picking speed”, in which case we are not sure it does anything. But as an exercise in timing control (e.g. ability to mix faster and slower playing in a short time) I think it can be great!

One issue I noticed with bursting is that it’s easy to convince yourself that you are playing the bursts in time when you are not (e.g. it’s easy to start a little early and finish a little late). So to check for that I found it useful to record a few attempts in a DAW to visually check my timing against the grid

[Jacklr]

Starting with upstrokes definitely felt weird to start with but I found working on the ideas in Adam’s video for a couple of days made it start to feel a lot more natural

Also, when you switch to USX pentatonic (if you ever do) it feels like you have this insane level of control of the pick stroke, it’s really cool!

My guide to playing cascading pentatonics with DSX motion

[Guitar Lesson: Playing Eric Johnson's cascading pentatonics with a downstroke escape motion] I hope a little bit of self promotion is accepted here. I’ve done a detailed explaination of how to translate EJ type lines to DSX using a downstroke escape motion. 24 tabbed excercises included. Any kind of feedback is welcome!

On another note, if you’re pretty comfortable with your DSX motion there are some licks that feel quite natural with a secondary helper motion. For example, I find the Vinnie Moore Pepsi lick lends itself quite well to this sort of thing, the slight rotation on the last note feels almost awkward not to do

[tommo]

@Jacklr

I find the Vinnie Moore Pepsi lick lends itself quite well to this sort of thing, the slight rotation on the last note feels almost awkward not to do

Yeah I know what you mean! Could it be that we want to accent the first note of the chunk, and that slight rotation feels like part of the preparation for the accent? I think that’s how I thought about it before learning about escapes etc.

[Jacklr]

@tommo

Could it be that we want to accent the first note of the chunk, and that slight rotation feels like part of the preparation for the accent?

Never thought of it like that but that is totally what it feels like!

[tommo]

@irvingmarquez256 a more direct response to your original question on learning how to start with upstrokes.

I thought about it a little and came up with a couple suggestions, let me know if any of these help:

1. try to tremolo pick a single note with — say — 4 or 6 notes per click depending on what feels best. Try to sync up the upstroke to the click. It may help to place a strong upstroke accent on the beat and / or use a rest stroke on the accented upstroke. You can even start slow-ish here, as you seem to already have a motion that you know can go fast.

2. play triplets where you alternate between upstroke and downstroke on the beat. Then, see if you can start the same triplet phrase both with up and down.

3. Try to “trick” yourself by starting with a downstroke just before the beat, then the following upstroke should fall on the beat. More generally, you could use an odd number of pickup notes starting on a down, launching you into the “upstroke lick” you are trying to nail.

[joebegly]

A trick that helped me (particularly for elbow) is to do the table tapping test from underneath the table. It doesn’t have to be the all out speed test, just try it along with a song that will require 8ths in the 160 to 180 bpm and keep time with it.

That will help your body understand that it’s actually really simple to feel the beat, but all on upstrokes. From there, move to a tremolo at similar speeds, the introduce the fretting hand. It is all in our head. Upstrokes and downstrokes are really no different : -)

[Ghoststrat]

I’m down here on the floor trying to curl my arm up on top of the table. I think I’ve misunderstood you

[joebegly]

lol! You’re probably joking (and that’s funny either way!) but here’s what I mean

upstroke table tap

If you do that to a song, it’s feels no different than tapping your foot to the beat. All the ‘knock’ sounds happen on an upstroke motion, so it should be easy to transfer that feeling to guitar.

[irvingmarquez256]

Thanks for the various ideas and videos. Sounds like I should really commit to the task of getting comfortable with upstrokes as the initial stroke. So far it has just been a couple minutes of tinkering and noping out of it, due to the discomfort. Doesn’t have to always be the way I play, but will probably give me a lot more options if I have the ability. It is encouraging to see that others have been able to make the change.