[solved] Strat string tension on a decked bridge, it's just preload

Gear
#1

edit: Summary

As others have pointed out my original statement below is not correct as it’s only true for a a DECKED bridge, where the bridge is flush with the body with full contact due to the springs/claw providing the needed forces.

The stings at rest reach perfect equilibrium at rest on a floating bridge, and with a floating bridge you cannot add preload as it’ll move the bridge’s resting/floating point and or change the pitch at rest. Granted.

So my conclusion is the effects I noticed, on a decked bridge to be sure is that over tightened springs add preload that you cannot apply to a floating bridge in any way.

The effects of preload on decked bridge only affect bending, and fretting change how the string’s stiffness can feel.

One cool thing is that if you can live with preload, especially with lighter strings, you can tune it such that double stops don’t go out of tune.

This is my final take away.

========= original message below =========
Long term strat player here.

I’ve been doing my setups for a long time and I think I finally figured out why some strats feel stiff and others not so much, considering all things like string gauge, scale length, tuning, action and neck bow.

I recently started to deck the bridge as I realised the tone was robust to a floating bridge. And I generally didn’t pay much attention to the number of springs or claw position as long as I got the amount of float or in this case have the bridge decked to the body with full contact.

:bulb: Here’s what I found, over tightening the claw with 5 springs made the strings feel a lot stiffer. Releasing the claw lowered string tension.

I mean the two body mounting claw screws, that set the claw distance, from the body where it’s mounted.

:raised_hand: So now I set it just where I don’t have the low E string go flat when I bend the G string, no more tighter than that, and I’ve then got the overall tension where I want/tolerate it.

I found the physics counter intuitive but it’s definitely a repeatable experiment over my three strats. So now I have a standardised real world test to set them close.

Speculative: I’m beginning to theorise on this a bit further, me currently playing flat sawn necks with 13-58 gauge strings is benefiting from the slightly more pliable flat sawn, kind of explains why quarter saw necks can be stiff on the strings, but with so many variables I may be reaching on the neck cut thing.

edit: I read somewhere SRV had one if his’s rodies dad make him billet steel carved tremolo arms to deal with the tension for a full show, rumour has it he’d break the trem arms, decking the bridge tight definitely changes the vibe on the trem, flex is introduced with stock arms.

#2

It doesn’t work like that. If the string’s tension changes, so does its pitch.

As long as the bridge isn’t moving, the force required for a certain bend will remain constant. The string doesn’t resist bending more just because the claw is screwed in more, or a spring was added, or the bridge was blocked in place.

#3

Obviously I’m re-tuning man. LoL

Edit: I did mention these results are unintuitive. Try it yourself bro.

#4

I meant that if the string stays at one pitch, its tension isn’t changing. Pulling the bridge into the body with more force doesn’t add string tension.

I’ve tested this sort of thing many years ago; there’s no difference as long as the bridge isn’t moving. Hands and memory are unreliable for this sort of comparison, IMO. It’s too easy to mistake no change as being a slight change.

#5

It’s true that physics dictates the tension of a specific guitar string at a given scale length and pitch. But I’m guessing that Twangsta is referring to something other than the physicsal definition of tension, especially since he mentions the feeling of string stiffness.

@Twangsta can you be more descriptive about what you mean by tension or string stiffness? Is it the amount of exertion required to fret a note, or to bend a given interval, or the bending distance required to change the pitch by a given interval? Some of these things can be affected by the details of the bridge and nut stability and attachment details.

#6

I agree. I’m guessing that the perceived tension when bending, specifically, changes perceptibly with bridge setup, even if you still need the same tension to bend to a particular note (with all other parameters held constant).

#7

All I’ll say is try it and see if there’s any value to my findings for your self.

This is one of those things that theory will not get you all the way there, there’s more going on in the way the equilibrium’s elasticity modulates.

#8

I thought about it some more

That’s the key. And so I think we are all right. My perception is limited to how the bend feels for this discussion, specifically the PRELOAD value of the setup. I think this makes more sense now. Like a bike suspension tuning. Thanks!

Edit: much like Ibanez Backstop Tremolo Stabilizer / Hipshot Tremsetter-type systems did.

Edit: it would be cool to see a fox shock in a guitar, pre load, fast slow rebound, etc :joy:

Edit2: exactly like a bike.
Hard stop = decked bridge
Spring expansion instead of compression like on a bike. I think the same physics apply regarding preload, the compliance curve can be shaped to taste.

#9

“there’s more going on in the way the equilibrium’s elasticity modulates”

What does that statement actually mean though? The physics of materials under tension have been understood very well for a long time and this stuff is taught in a first semester college physics class. There are really only three factors at play with a normally functioning guitar string: the mass of the string, the scale length, and the tension the string is at. You can’t vary the mass unless we’re talking something crazy like a string that’s actively vaporizing under intense heat (John Petrucci rig knob that controls the sun jokes go here), so essentially everything comes down to tension and scale length.

Certain feel tweaks you see recommended like wrapping over a tailpiece and stuff like that are likely subtly changing the scale length as the string slips along the surface during a bend, which changes the tension and requires more or less bend force. If you had a bridge or claw made of a material that deforms under tension, that would actually affect it too, but that would also be a really bad design and would play terribly. Given that the mass of the string and the scale length is held constant (i.e. the bridge is not moving, which it does not when you set whatever claw/spring adjustment is being recommended for “best feel”), there is just no way to get the same pitch from a string with different tensions, that’s a violation of established physical laws.

#10

Please see my previous post, if that helps with what I’m describing. I’m sorry it took a while to understand the boundaries of operation when I noticed the difference.

#11

Take a fixed bridge vs. a floating Floyd Rose. The difference in feel there is because as you bend a string on the Floyd, the floating nature of the bridge and springs causes it to compensate for equilibrium in real time and it requires more bend motion from you the player to get to the desired pitch because of the bridge moving. With a fixed bridge, it doesn’t move at all and requires less motion to reach the target pitch. Changing the spring arrangement or the claw position on the Floyd version doesn’t change the tension the strings are under (remember the mass and scale length have not changed at all), or the force needed to bend them, it just distributes them slightly differently over rigid non-deformable objects (the bridge and claw), which is functionally identical to the original case before spring or claw changes were made.

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#12

Yes. No argument. Except for the decked floating bridge. I use the trem for one way operation and ofcourse the feel in bends particularly since I’m on 13-58 gauge strings with stupid high action at E flat. YMMV :blush:

#13

Do any OTHER notes go flat when you bend the G?

If the answer is no, then I can’t think of a potential physical explanation why this might be the case (and I’m not un-floating one of my floating 2 point trems to test a null hypothesis unless there’s a mechanism on the hypothesis that could explain it, FAR too much work, lol). There’s more tension on the screws and springs behind the trem than is needed to keep the body flush with the wood, sure… but there’s also no mechanism by which that tension can be transmitted to the strings on the front of the guitar, and the very fact that the bridge is held flat during bends (where you selecticely increase the string tension on one string) means the bridge being imoble is holding the string tension and spring/claw tension out of balance, with more tension from the springs than the strings.

In any event what you’re doing strikes me as a sensible approach for setting up a dive-only trem anyway - deck the bridge, then adjust claw tension up until whatever the biggest bend you routinely expect to do will not move the trem, but no higher. There’s no sense in keeping a ton of excess tension on the claw screws beyond what’s needed, and the odds of ripping one out of the body are low, but pushed far enough probably not zero.

3 Likes
#14

I think there is a hidden variable here. When you increase the distance required to bend a given by a given interval, you end up pushing further into the neighboring strings, requiring you to bend multiple strings at once further than you would have to do with a decked bridge. This does require more force and is likely noticeable to the player. I believe this is the answer to the question posed in this thread: Is it just me or it is pretty hard to bend the high E string?

But this is just a detail. I agree with the rest of the conclusions.

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#15

I’m no guitar tech, but my buddy is an engineer and has built 3 custom Warmoth builds for me in addition to setting up many of strats, etc. I definitely like “loose” string tension that I categorize as a slinky feel. Very easy to bend. All of my guitars he’s worked on now have super low, very loose string tension where 2 step bends are super easy. According to him, any guitar can be set up that way by someone who knows what they’re doing.

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#16

That sounds like a person who can do a setup. That’s how it’s supposed to feel: comfortable. That said, I struggle to imagine a setup that somehow makes strings less tense. It just doesn’t work that way.

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#17

My late 90’s strat was hard to play, it would tear your fingers up on bends with how “tight” it felt. He did his thing and it now has loose, low action. I dunno🤷‍♂️

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#18

Exactly. That’s a proper setup.

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#19

Absolutely right! To back you up, we can go way back, to the year 1636!

#20

@kgk spring tension makes a difference when the bridge is decked, bending and fretting stiffness can be tuned as the overtightened springs can act as a pre load. Nuance.

There is no effect on tension with the strings at rest. Granted.

You guys are opptting the point of my post. It took me a moment to realise the nuance. Buts it’s what matters. You folks are more interested in arguing and trying to be bookish when I’m trying to add some set up tips that are subtle but real.