[solved] Strat string tension on a decked bridge, it's just preload

Gear
#9

“there’s more going on in the way the equilibrium’s elasticity modulates”

What does that statement actually mean though? The physics of materials under tension have been understood very well for a long time and this stuff is taught in a first semester college physics class. There are really only three factors at play with a normally functioning guitar string: the mass of the string, the scale length, and the tension the string is at. You can’t vary the mass unless we’re talking something crazy like a string that’s actively vaporizing under intense heat (John Petrucci rig knob that controls the sun jokes go here), so essentially everything comes down to tension and scale length.

Certain feel tweaks you see recommended like wrapping over a tailpiece and stuff like that are likely subtly changing the scale length as the string slips along the surface during a bend, which changes the tension and requires more or less bend force. If you had a bridge or claw made of a material that deforms under tension, that would actually affect it too, but that would also be a really bad design and would play terribly. Given that the mass of the string and the scale length is held constant (i.e. the bridge is not moving, which it does not when you set whatever claw/spring adjustment is being recommended for “best feel”), there is just no way to get the same pitch from a string with different tensions, that’s a violation of established physical laws.

#10

Please see my previous post, if that helps with what I’m describing. I’m sorry it took a while to understand the boundaries of operation when I noticed the difference.

#11

Take a fixed bridge vs. a floating Floyd Rose. The difference in feel there is because as you bend a string on the Floyd, the floating nature of the bridge and springs causes it to compensate for equilibrium in real time and it requires more bend motion from you the player to get to the desired pitch because of the bridge moving. With a fixed bridge, it doesn’t move at all and requires less motion to reach the target pitch. Changing the spring arrangement or the claw position on the Floyd version doesn’t change the tension the strings are under (remember the mass and scale length have not changed at all), or the force needed to bend them, it just distributes them slightly differently over rigid non-deformable objects (the bridge and claw), which is functionally identical to the original case before spring or claw changes were made.

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#12

Yes. No argument. Except for the decked floating bridge. I use the trem for one way operation and ofcourse the feel in bends particularly since I’m on 13-58 gauge strings with stupid high action at E flat. YMMV :blush:

#13

Do any OTHER notes go flat when you bend the G?

If the answer is no, then I can’t think of a potential physical explanation why this might be the case (and I’m not un-floating one of my floating 2 point trems to test a null hypothesis unless there’s a mechanism on the hypothesis that could explain it, FAR too much work, lol). There’s more tension on the screws and springs behind the trem than is needed to keep the body flush with the wood, sure… but there’s also no mechanism by which that tension can be transmitted to the strings on the front of the guitar, and the very fact that the bridge is held flat during bends (where you selecticely increase the string tension on one string) means the bridge being imoble is holding the string tension and spring/claw tension out of balance, with more tension from the springs than the strings.

In any event what you’re doing strikes me as a sensible approach for setting up a dive-only trem anyway - deck the bridge, then adjust claw tension up until whatever the biggest bend you routinely expect to do will not move the trem, but no higher. There’s no sense in keeping a ton of excess tension on the claw screws beyond what’s needed, and the odds of ripping one out of the body are low, but pushed far enough probably not zero.

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#14

I think there is a hidden variable here. When you increase the distance required to bend a given by a given interval, you end up pushing further into the neighboring strings, requiring you to bend multiple strings at once further than you would have to do with a decked bridge. This does require more force and is likely noticeable to the player. I believe this is the answer to the question posed in this thread: Is it just me or it is pretty hard to bend the high E string?

But this is just a detail. I agree with the rest of the conclusions.

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#15

I’m no guitar tech, but my buddy is an engineer and has built 3 custom Warmoth builds for me in addition to setting up many of strats, etc. I definitely like “loose” string tension that I categorize as a slinky feel. Very easy to bend. All of my guitars he’s worked on now have super low, very loose string tension where 2 step bends are super easy. According to him, any guitar can be set up that way by someone who knows what they’re doing.

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#16

That sounds like a person who can do a setup. That’s how it’s supposed to feel: comfortable. That said, I struggle to imagine a setup that somehow makes strings less tense. It just doesn’t work that way.

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#17

My late 90’s strat was hard to play, it would tear your fingers up on bends with how “tight” it felt. He did his thing and it now has loose, low action. I dunno🤷‍♂️

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#18

Exactly. That’s a proper setup.

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#19

Absolutely right! To back you up, we can go way back, to the year 1636!

#20

@kgk spring tension makes a difference when the bridge is decked, bending and fretting stiffness can be tuned as the overtightened springs can act as a pre load. Nuance.

There is no effect on tension with the strings at rest. Granted.

You guys are opptting the point of my post. It took me a moment to realise the nuance. Buts it’s what matters. You folks are more interested in arguing and trying to be bookish when I’m trying to add some set up tips that are subtle but real.

#21

There’s no mechanical reason why this “preload” should impact the strings; does a fixed bridge guitar string tension change when you glue the bridge to the body instead of screwing it? Or if you screw the screws down extra tight, does that change the feel? Once the trem is held flat against the body, and there’s enough string tension that it doesn’t rise up at any point during a bend, the additional tension is mechanically irrelevant. “Preload” implies at some point that additional tension isbeing exceeded, and if that was the case, then sure… but if there’s enough tension on the bridge that the bridge never becomes unplanted from the body, then that’s not really the case and you’d need some theory as to why the bridge “cares” how it’s being held in place, and I don’t know if I see one.

That’s not “more interested in arguing or trying to be bookish,” that’s just physics and the scientific method. If you think the amount of spring tension in excess of what’s needed to hold the bridge immobile for the largest bend you’re performing is meaningful, then what’s the mechanism by which that excess tension is transferred into the strings? This is pretty straightforward science, so there should be a physical mechanism that explains it.

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#22

@Drew, I think you guys are missing the point. Let try to explain again.

Assumptions:

  1. bridge is decked
  2. decked bridge means the springs and claw are holding the bridge plate flush with the body.
  3. X is the minimum force needed to hold the bridge plate flush to the body.

Disturbing the equilibrium:

  1. applying a bend with Y force to a string when spring force is X, the bridge will lift say 1mm.
  2. the player applying force Y will feel force X as resistance + string elasticity + neck/body flex.

Applying preload:

  1. Force X is the bare minimum to hold the bridge plate flat to the body.
  2. Now if I increase force X to X + P, P being preload. P is generated by further tighten the claw, even though the bridge is already decked, just making it tighter.
  3. Now the bend force Y will to lift the bridge to 1mm, will in theory be X + P + body flex + string elasticity.

At this point will you not feel the Preload? I may have used this word wrong but the added P will be felt by the player bending the string to raise the bridge 1mm.

I’m using the bridge 1mm lift in lieu of saying bending a D to A on the G string for example.

Does this make any sense? Am I still wrong, my only concern about this is when bending and fretting and the perceived stiffness, modulating the effort needed.

edit: I think you didn’t read my middle post about preload being like what you use in suspension tuning. There’s a hard stop, in this case it’s the decked bridge.

#23

I think this is my point, but the parroting of basic physics and the bridge at rest was not my point of focus of interest here.

#24

“Parroting” sounds a little dismissive when you are trying to defend a theory that can’t endure the most superficial tests and you haven’t provided anything of substance besides a proverbial “trust me bro”. It’s not an opinion that’s opposing your theory. It’s the universe as we know it.

1 Like
#25

I said what I said.

You didsnt respond to it.

Parroting is accurate.

#26

Wait, are you saying the bridge was moving on larger bends after all? Because that would 100% explain the change of feel you’re describing.

If the bridge is decked and staying decked throughout the extent of the largest bends you’re playing, then no, this is placebo. If it’s moving, then when you bend past a certain point your bridge becomes floating and that 100% feels “softer” and “easier” than a fixed bridge because you’re no longer bending the string against a fixed focal point.

But you were pretty clear in your OP that this wasn’t what was happening and the bridge was completely fixed. That changes things.

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#27

I’ve read your edits thoroughly so I am addressing them directly: You just learned how to setup a dive-only trem bridge just like everybody else.

I guess you are hyper excited because a properly setup guitar feels that nice and it’s new to you but I think you lost the audience with the confusing use of the term “decked”, which as far as I can tell, usually means just one thing among guitarists: the bridge is performing as a hardtail.

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#28

Damn man, was so frustrated with you guys.

I’ve been playing a long while, some of you know me better than write a whole thread about trying to push the floor down while standing on it :man_shrugging: :man_facepalming:

Thanks @steve506 for the vote of confidence, to be honest it’s the first time I’m setting up my guitar to be decked, and I did explain and mention trem arm breakage due to high tensions. Ne ways, thanks for finally reading my notes.

I’d love to rant about a bridge being decked with spring tension involved, comprehension … :rofl: :grimacing: