Sweep arpeggio turnarounds

Playing Technique
#1

Decided to make this thread because I was messing around with sweeps today, having neglected them for a long time, and had a little interesting breakthrough that I don’t fully understand, and anyway it was interesting to try and re-analyse them armed with new insight into stuff like pickslanting that I wasn’t aware of before.

I’ve always found shapes like these relatively easy:
sweeps_dim3str_1

sweeps_min5str_1

as in there was never any ‘roadblock’ in learning them, I simply gradually got faster and cleaner with practice. Obviously these are all 2-way pickslanting. I realised that I can handle almost any shape with this kind of 3-note turnaround on one string, I think because it gives you plenty of time to rotate the pickslant.
But I always had trouble with this kind of thing:

sweeps_min4str_1

and trying to narrow down where the problem was, its that single note on the D string that throws my pick into chaos. I think its swiping through the D string with an upstroke on the way down which messes up the timing and everything.
Today I randomly tried it out starting on an upstroke like this:

sweeps_min4str_2

and it instantly just clicked and felt smoother and better, although it feels weird to have an upstroke on the downbeat. I don’t really get it, this is inside picking and I usually find outside easier. Looking forward to getting a camera on this eventually to see what’s going on.

I kind of forgot where I was going with this thread. Any similar experiences / anyone else struggle with these kinds of one-note turnarounds?

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#2

Interesting, I naturally tend towards inside picking so I find a lot of things work better for me if I start on an upstroke so that I can go to a thinner string with a down pick.

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#3

As @Horganovski points out, you’re noticing the difference between the “inside” and “outside” version of this type of turnaround. Most economy-style players, like Jimmy Bruno and Marshall Harrison, tend to use the inside method. When you do that, the pickslanting change happens at exactly the same moment as the lick’s change in direction. I suspect this may be why many people think this feels easier.

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#4

Oh right, that makes sense. Normally I prefer outside picking but thats while keeping a fixed pick slant. In this case it really feels like I have to rush to rotate the slant before the direction change and I always do it too late. With inside picking though the rotation and direction change is all one movement.

I hope I didn’t confuse any jazz guys by using the word ‘turnaround’ which means something completely different…

#5

Is there any examples of anyone doing this sort of turnaround on the platform? I tried to look through the Bruno, Gambale, Harrison and Teemu interviews but couldn’t find one. Granted I didn’t check every clip, but those with arpeggio in the name.

I encountered one of these again today and realized that doing the ‘inside’ turnaround with the change in slant isn’t enough to get this clean. The turnaround can’t just be another sweep stroke, because that would cause the pick to be buried between the strings. Instead it has to be an upstroke that leaves the plane of the strings, while the slant is simultaneously changed, right?

edit: perhaps a bit lame to resurrect this old thread, but it already had some good posts and was the only one I could find on the topic.

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#6

i noticed this kind of shape that joe stump uses is killer and super simple to really go fast but also with zero tension. i thought the yngwie 5 sweep was easy, no way the 6 string ones are much easier. but if you notice it has the upstroke that you point out.

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#7

Are you referring to the change in direction in the middle of a lick or phrase? I found that very difficult due to feeling a need to slant in the direction of the sweep

#8

I think this could be related to something I noticed a while ago and wrote about it in this post. Basically, I think it’s easier to use a secondary escape motion for inside string changes, while outside string changes end up being swiped.

In this case, you finish the descending sweep on the G string and need to get on the other side of the D string while also rotating into a USX form to get ready for the ascending sweep.

If you instead continue the descending sweep to the D string, the string change where you need to switch to USX is now an outside change and you can rotate the forearm without slamming into the string you’re getting over.

I hope that makes sense.

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#9

Yes, the OP in this thread has the two ways to do this notated as the two last examples.

So in this example:

sweeps_min4str_2

in the descending portion you have three ‘sweep strokes’ that are trapped strokes, but then the final notated up stroke on the D has to be USX to get clear of the D string. I’ve just been doing another trapped ‘sweep stroke’, I realized today. That left my pick trapped between the A and D string and I’ve just been ‘solving’ this by swiping / hitting the D string again while muting on the way to hitting the F# on the G string.

#10

Ah okay. Yeah I always did the inside picking thing with two way economy. I never used outside picking with it. So there would be a bit of a forearm flip right when I need to change direction. If I were smarter, I’d have just swiped it.
I don’t actually practice two way economy anymore, but I always found any change of direction very challenging.

#11

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“Beyond the Dark Sun” by Wintersun has a really cool one of these in the intro.

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#12

This one from Ov Sacrament And Sincest by Infant Annihilator is pretty fantastic! I want to get an 8-string just to learn the song:

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#13

Kind of hard to see exactly what he does without the magnet. He makes it look effortless, though.

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#14

The scariest part is he’s that flawless live.

#15

This is a really interesting thread, and I think that the following is true:

  • One can sweep through the strings, and on the last string, escape (or prepare to swipe upon the direction change).
  • One can sweep through the strings, and on the second-to-last string, escape (or swipe through the last string to prepare to turn around).

For me, thinking ahead is painful, so I would avoid thinking about second-to-last.

#16

The second one seems to work for downward pickslanters. (Those who escape on upstrokes) although agreed it creates an awkward moment of hang time. I try to avoid these shapes for this reason, hahaha and I suspect it’s why you dont see them in the playing of someone like Yngwie too often where he opts for the classic three string with the legato shape of those diminished arpeggios.

I wish Troy could get an interview with Michael Romeo. To me he’s one of the most flawless to ever do it when it comes to sweeping. When I was first listening to Symphon X’s catalog there were times I thought it was the keys and it was Romeo being Romeo. I’d love to see what his technique looks like under the magnet.

The ability to on command alternate the number of strings when sweeping while keeping a constant rhythm is the pinnacle of sweeping technique imo.

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