The dreaded absolute pitch phenomenon

ok so i am sure we all know by now people have this crazy ability that is like blessed upon them from the Gods. i mean i dunno why He don’t let us all hear so well, it’s ok… i guess. :confused: i mean i guess we sorta altered the tuning system anyways away from the harmonic overtone series so it really is something humans cooked up.

but to the meat and potatoes of my post. how in the world am i ever suppose to know when and where i can play my phrasing if i never ever know the key or note being played say i was blind and we had a language barrier. take away all the, well just know the progression blah blah know the song. like if you guys were playing some cute little progression, how and when will i ever get it right where i can play my creations, my phrases. is the trick in diminished? can really super impressive relative pitch even help here or not?

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Yes, having strong relative pitch, along with some decent fretboard knowledge will give you what you are seeking. The more experienced you get with improv you will learn to see your go-to licks and fingerings across multiple keys eventually it just takes time. Even if no one tells you what key you’re in you’ll be able to figure that out through relative pitch and you’ll get better at finding your licks based off the root.

Absolute pitch is a hell of a tool but it’s not the be all end all. At the end of the day, absolute pitch or not, everyone has to put in the effort to become a good musician. I’ve seen people with perfect pitch be monster players and I’ve seen people with it be very unspectacular players.

Apparently absolute pitch drifts with age, Adam Neely made a video about it.

Immediately killed what little envy I had for people with absolute pitch, lol.

Other than that yeah, in music it’s not the absolute notes you really care about, it’s the relation between two notes, which is relative pitch.

My experience is that you are born with perfect pitch but you can train relative pitch to be just as good. Or at least it will be good enought to be a working musician and composer. A lot of the big names doesen´t have perfect pitch, I´m sure. Totaly agree with Constare9, it is not the be all end all. I´ve also met alot of musicians (in music college and in working situations) with perfect pitch, that has been nothing special, and also the other way around! If you have a good understanding of theory and train your relative pitch, that will be enought. I think interval training is a great way to go, teaching your ears the relationship between the notes. It also makes it easier to lears things by ear. I was cursed (or blessed, your choice) with perfect pitch, and it´s NOT only a positive thing! I can´t stand listening to certain things (mostly pitch related but also “wrong scales/modes”) , I have problems connecting theory with what I actually play because “I just play” . It´s like theory is one thing and music is something else, and I have a hard time connecting them.I have heard a lot of different explanations (colors, pictures…) but I recognise notes and chords like you recognise a face, the sound of a note or chord just “looks” a certain way. When I see a sheet of music I can explain which scale to use with which chord, but as soon as I start to play, that´s gone! Apparently I play the right notes, but I could not explain why when I play. It might sound like a good thing, but it´s really not! If you play a session gig, you will do much better if you have your theory and fretboard knowledge down. And I´m not living from my music, so it´s not a guarantee! :slight_smile:

I think you need to ask yourself, what do you want to hear from the speaker when you play? If you put on a random backing track without looking what key it´s in, can you hear the right or wrong notes? Alot of times I think we forget to listen, we care about theory, gear and everything but the music… Take a phrase that you know and try to fit it to a backing track/chord progerssion and see where on the fretboard it fits. You will learn patterns and ways around the fretboard that works in different keys. And of course, learning your favorite solos and figuring out why they play what they do is a given. My 5 cents, hope it made ANY sense, because it didn´t answer your question very well?! :joy:

There are people who develop it, so if you are born with I would just say that is genetics at play. Someone in the blood line was a musician perhaps.

it would be interesting to hear your perspective on why instrumentalist musicians play things as opposed to someone who has perfect relative pitch.

do you also have perfect relative pitch?

what do you consider a wrong scale? Microtonal?

speaking of scales you might find this interesting, i found this about 2 days ago. this seems so kooky, but i like the way he maps it out. Look at the scales section.

https://ianring.com/musictheory/scales/

haha its just so out there that i love it

Granny played violin in the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra and my mom played classical Piano, so I was indoctrinated from birth! :joy: So maybe it was developed without me knowing about it? But I also think that there are differences in this subject, as I wrote before, I´ve met musicians that have trained their relative pitch to be basically perfect, hard to tell the difference. What first comes to mind regarding “wrong scale” is when a guitarplayer (because it´s always us guitar players) plays for example a minor pentatonic scale over a major chord progession. I hear it on the radio alot, a song with a very basic major chord progression that has a solo, and that minor third just cuts my ears… The guitarplayer usually calls it “bluesy” but to me it sounds awful! Someone said “there are no wrong notes as long as you mean them” and that may be true, but there should be some knowledge behind it i think. My absolute hero, Allan Holdsworth, plays some really interesting things that can sound really out there, but if you listen closely and analyse it, it´s really the correct scales to the very complex chords and progressions he uses, with some chromatic notes to lead in to the next chord. Microtonal music can be interesting, but it has to be in that concept, wouldn´t work in a Britney Spears song! :yum:

Ya i think there are also levels to the ability as well like the guy on that stan lee superhuman show that not only had an incredible pitch sense, he also had a memory like a computer. He did some amazing things. Just seeing how he could take the pitch sense with the memory aspect was nuts! This older lady played a piece she had composed. He heard it once and played it back like 98% accuracy, after one listen. I think she started crying. Then he would take styles and meld between them like classical pieces in the style of bebop jazz, and other crazy feats. Then they took him to an orchestra that each section played a different note and he used all 10 fingers on both hands played ever note in the chord plus two more for 12 note chord. I have a feeling there are degrees to sensing pitch. It starts with one and then two and however far you can go, but 12 notes i think he probably played correct octave.

But see the best time to learn language is as a child, unfortunately he had a disability, but maybe that disability was his ability. But whoever his teacher was mustve been a secret genius. ROFL! After all music is just a language, most likely the beginning one. It is why solfege helps to remember pitches, but this goes way way back. And they might have utilized other ways to remember pitches, but this one of the better ways to do it. But you do have people who have synesthesia, now that would be wild. I imagine to to be something like if you take acid. I dont condone drugs but that sounds scary actually to hear sound and sense color. I could probably train my brain through meditation to do that, but nevet actually freakisly experience it without my consent.

This doesnt have to do with the flaws of equal temperament that maybe you are keying in on? I would have to research the distance between the harmonic series and equal temperament to see where the purity lies to give you a better answer. Would have to know exact area that this occurs, but you could analyze it, against the chord to, try to pinpoint it.

In that particular case ( “wrong scale”) it´s simpler than equal temperamet, I´m refering to the fact that you often hear a minor pentatonic over a major chord progression. I´m wondering if that has to do with not hearing it or that alot of guitar players fall back to the minor pentatonic when improvising? Lack of knowledge? But the guitar itself is a disaster when it comes to all things logical I think? First the actual tuning that makes anything theoretical impossible to understand for beginners. So easy to understand on a piano! I´ve tried to tune in straight fourths, a´la Tom Quale (E-A-D-G-C-F) and it makes so much more sense pattern wise, but I really am a creature of habit it seems… :joy: Secondly the fact that you can never tune it! Especially that B string, it will never be in tune. I tried out a Strandberg with true temperament frets, that was unbelievable! I guess that is the closest we will ever get with a guitar?! But pitch is interesting as a subject. In middle east music you often hear that the major third is more than a few cents sharp, it almost lies between that half step to the forth. To us it sounds out of tune, but that is how it´s meant to be. And it´s not “randomly out of tune”, it is the same cents sharp every time. Of course there are people with perfect pitch in the middle east too. I think it´s a matter of your heritage, what you grow up listening to?

Wow, very Holdsworthian.

Haha wait until you meet a moog one yikes! Haha. My Deepmind 12 is complex enough I could lose weeks dialing in sounds. In fact probably have… lol

Minor over major is pretty close to the definition of the blues tonality, which is non-diatonic. Applying diatonic logic to this kind of music is likely to lead to frustration. Not to say that sometimes guitarists don’t play badly, but the similarities between wrong and unfamiliar can lead to false conclusions.

I recommend Ethan Hein’s blog in general, and he has several articles where he touches on this subject

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So when you identify the tone, is it the major, minor, and phrygian you are hearing inside of the tone? I consider the whole tone lydian/locrian thing to actually just be a concoction of major and phrygian. It is why they say it sounds purple. Imagine placing a major and phrygian tetrachord on top of each other, and there is the whole tone inside of this mixture, or perhaps maybe it is all of the primary tetrachords on top of each other, who knows. maybe the two different whole tone tetrachords residing in the major scale the natural whole tone one on the lydian, and the flat whole tone on the locrian, Ive seen some theory regarding this sort of thing as the wholetone being the top, just under the chromatic, maybe the barry harris thing. The other non natural notes that reside between these main natural note mixtures are between these sounds. If so what do you hear in the sharps, are they mixtures of these as well, placed between the natural tones mixtures?

You said faces, so I take that as each note has some sort of genetic makeup. Could you explain a bit more in detail.

I am seeing how I am able to identify, and why I mistake things. Because I am having trouble pinpointing where these primary colors reside in some of the tones that are mixtures of these primary colors. Is it left, right, or center sort of thing, or the tone is an inbetween one of the natural notes of the major scale.

Like say Do, So, or Fi plays. Since Do is major/major tetrachord this one i rarely miss, but sometimes I confuse So since it has major/minor a bit of major on the front, and since Fi, the tritone, resides on the backside of Fa which we know has the makeup of wholetone/major, that puts the tritone inbetween a backside major of Fa and a frontside major of So. So sometimes I get the sensation that this tone, Fi, is glassy, or something like that cause its trying to confuse my senses. Or maybe perhaps its like singing Do but sucking in Air to sing it, like a Mirrored Do is how Fi sounds to me. But I am testing all the tones in atonality so it can get pretty jaring with comprehending it all as a whole since I am just starting to grasp how I am able to sense the tones. And Fi doesnt sound glassy, like visually, its just a way to try to describe aurally why its trying to trip up Do or So on me, or just remain sort of hidden amongst the crowd of genetically major tones in a sea of atonality, keyless monophonic color swirl typhoon random note guessing game.

And really I know this might be quite confusing I am using syllables in fixed do so when I hear certain tones, not all I know the syllable immediately so this means that if I hear Mi, one of my more prominent ones, that is Mi. Phrygian/Phrygian there is no denying that so that is how I know its the tetrachord genetics I am hearing in the atonality random pitch test, or what I call keyless monophonic color swirl typhoon random note guessing game. You might be thinking well he just heard something, but no I can test hours, days, upon waking, and these notes always reside in that place amongst the solfege. Which sucks cause that makes Mi at A#, rofl! Its so sad people say no one can learn this anyone can rofl! However it might be related to how everyone hears, or vocal range to decide where everyones Do resides in the equal temperament tuning system.

This is why do, re, mi has such a big significance because they are the primary colors. Like in the visual realm its red, yellow, and blue.

Do major/major
Re minor/minor
Mi phrygian/phrygian

But there might be different degrees to it, depending on what or when one acquired this sense during their lifetime. By on what I mean the tuning on the instrument, and how well in tune it was in equal temperament. And when, childhood, teenager, or adult. Genetics can also play a big factor, I know this from being a gym rat. And monophonic then polyphony, oh and key identification has more to do with understanding musical writing, not really absolute pitch, because it would require how to identify song form. But it requires solid absolute pitch to do so. It could also just be that once one understands they can sense pitch this way you can then hone it. Because I believe everybody has this sense as long as they can hear, some are just on or way off. Or forever reside like a wanderer moving the rainbow around in moveable do fashion wondering why they are lost if they dont know the key.

I might trying moving over to my synths to practice this, but I dont know how to find a program to randomly press keys for me via midi. Because I can only randomly press white keys, if I reach for black you can sort of decipher where you are on the keys by feel. Since I can pretty much remove the 5th overtone via frequency sweep, I can get closer to the fundamental with only slightly hearing the fundamentals octave. This way if I try to switch instruments I can see if this helps, or if it doesn’t.

The very short answer to this question is that the good improvisers we have interviewed all appear to work off shapes. They’re not picking notes out of thin air, and they’re not doing it by knowing the note names. They’re thinking generally about the shapes that are near where they are located on the fretboard. Just like a barre chord is always the same shape, just in a different spot based on the key. Same with lead lines.

Yes, finding the shape’s initial location requires knowing the fret, or trial and error by ear compared to the song. But you only have to do that once. Everything after that point is done by some combination of muscle memory / sound, and knowing which shapes connect to which other shapes.

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I believe Christiaan van Hemert has a good book about this for guitar, he calls it his van hemert system. And he has loops that he practices so he can sorta map things out, and keep technique grinding alongst side of improvise grinding.

This way, the loops, go beyond shapes, and actually can serve context beyond always remaining grounded on one pattern, or it is like the overall solo roadmap where you can split off of for other ideas. Sorta training wheels to improvising, and how to connect ideas or fallback on when brain fails, as well as keep technique grind going.

How did you determine that the above statement is true? It really is an astonishing claim!

I’m not claiming it’s absolutely true in all cases, only that it appears to be among the players we’ve interviewed. Sometimes players will straight up tell us, here is the lick I use. And it’s always the same shape relative to a particular fretboard area. Jimmy Bruno talked about this one in our interview. No matter the key, he only plays this lick in the “E”-shape barre chord area:

If you ask Jimmy to play this line in a key a half step up, he will give you the same fretboard shape a half step up. It’s a memorized sequence of finger motions.

Olli Soikkeli is the same way. In trying to ask him how he organizes his phrases, we finally landed on the word “positions”, which is the word he uses in his mind. Similar to Jimmy, when he’s near a particular root or chord note, he has lick shapes he knows and they are memorized / automatic. He played a bunch of them and I indicated in the names which fretboard shapes they are near based on the chord shapes he demonstrated. Just one of many examples, another E shape phrase. Note that this one moves between three chords, which is how the “playing through the changes” aspect is done:

Same for Oz Noy as well. There was one moment in the interview where he was playing some chord and I was like, how do you know what licks to play now? And he says “I see this shape” — plays a line — “and I see this shape” — plays another line. Oz has a huge vocabulary of shapes he “sees” in any part of the fretboard so he doesn’t sound repetitive when he plays, but the fact is they are shapes and they are semi-memorized.

I don’t think any of this is really unusual only because we all do it. Everybody knows the box position pentatonic scale. Everybody knows it occurs in only one spot for a particular key. And everybody has some way of locating that spot — by fret, by chord shape, however you do it. Once you locate that spot, you have all your licks. Great improvisers are the same, they just have many times more spots and shapes they know, including licks that move from one chord to another.

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