Theory you have accessible instantly

You hand someone a PDF like this and say, do all this and then come back to me. Well, that’s going to take me quite a long time. And the instructions aren’t even clear as to how or where on the neck this needs to be done. Before I even think about committing that much effort, I’m going to want to know if that’s really the best way I can be spending my time.

If there’s a Cracking the Code way of looking at things, it’s the practical aspect. How do things work, and what way of teaching them produces results? A lot of this harmony stuff screams out to me as needing to be looked at and measured objectively somehow.

What is the goal, is it to become “good” at improvising? Then define good for me. Show me in very practical terms what good looks like. I’m not talking about personal preference levels of good, like “Pat Martino’s lines move me in a way that those of other Pats do not”. I mean, riding the bike levels of good. As in, a player is competent when he or she can play lines that move smoothly through X number of chord progressions, at tempo T, without stopping or thinking or breaking stride. Something like that.

Sure, many of these observations about harmony are technically correct. But it’s of no actual use if the teaching methodology, whatever it is, fails to produce good players. Or, if a particular way of looking at things produces results, but to a much lesser degree than some other method, then that’s also worth knowing as well.

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From what I gather Ben Monder wants people to have put in a lot of work before hand - he doesn’t want to waste his time with pupils who aren’t up to speed. He would most likely want a pupil to be able to play this stuff anywhere on the neck. It would be heavy going learning this stuff and not much fun.

That’s what I like about CTC - the interviews and seminars are useful to me, because they’re practical and I can watch what I want to and skip over what I’m not interested in and I won’t get the feeling that I’ve missed something.

That’s the problem with this. Up to speed on what? If you ran all this stuff through Martin’s process, you would have a usable vocabulary filled with arpeggio phrases all over the neck that flow through chord progressions. If you simply memorized chord shapes everywhere, you’d have… memorized shapes.

This is similar to the problem the shred crowd runs into where they learn all seven three-note-per-string fingerings. You can do all that, and that will cover the whole neck. And you will still have almost no improvisational vocabulary.

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I’m guessing he wants them up to speed on their triads, inversions and arpeggios.

I don’t know if my words worth something as I am not a big fan of theory and other boring stuff … anyway…

It’s not like
"oh, in this song we are playing minor tonic with major subdominant, so I guess it would be wise to use dorian scale while improvising"

It’s more like
"oh, I know this motif! I played it million times. I bet THIS lick would sound cool!.. yep, it’s cool… oh, by the way it’s dorian scale"

…and, may I say, comparing musical theory to, for example, nonlinear dynamic systems physics I could say that musical theory is definitely not a “shitload” of information ))

I’ve studied with Fuze and indeed this is something he often says, but in relation with how he applies the scales in his improvising-meaning that he is after using them as means to create and develop motifs instead of just running them up and down. His knowledge of scales and all related materials is vast, I would even call it breathtaking. He also often said that his obsessive scale practice during his youth gave him nothing more than hand injury, but I believe that we should take what these guys say with a grain of salt…I’m sure he also gained his serious chops and built strong foundation for his more motivic explorations of both western and oriental microtonal scales-and by the way he can really shred those too.

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You’re a lucky man to have studied with a master like Fuze!

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Martin Miller’s interview on how he practices playing over changes is really great-as is the one on his technique. Really good stuff. However, what he does is common jazz pedagogy. Anyone interested should check Hall Crook’s book How To Improvise-basically it’s what he teaches at Berkee. Looking for creative solutions on how to connect different scales while dealing with chord changes-in real time, like Martin does-while improvising and trying to make actual music with the chosen material, that’s a core concept. The same with practicing using only chord tones, as it was suggested above.
Regarding Pat Metheny…again, grain of salt. Just take a look at that book with his warm up/practice routines…He knows his scales and he knows his arpeggios and he can run them up and down- I have watched a tape from a clinic at a Jazz school in Holland, circa 1990, where he plays through the changes of All the Things You Are, just playing the scales seemingly connecting them without changing direction until he runs out of strings-and he does so in every position and in time, the tempo being in the 300 bpm area. And after running though a few choruses like that-as a warm up-he says…and now let’s play some music, and he starts actually improvising using all that material. And, watch this, he starts his solo by playing exactly the same solo break that he plays on the Q@A version that would be recorded a few weeks after that clinic-and he plays it note for note.
Generally speaking, regarding all the different fretboard shapes, after teaching for over 20 years and of course by observing what is my own learning process, the way I see it is, different brains work different ways. Say, for me, just the shapes won’t cut it. They are, of course, of great help, but I have to know what the notes I play are. Their names, their relation to the chord of the moment, the key, whatever. I’v found early on that if I didn’t, relaying just on shapes caused more confusion. I could really use the shape oriented nature of guitar to my advantage if I knew all the theory I needed-and know it well. On the other hand, others don’t really need all that, their brains-and ears-operate a different way.

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I’ve been a jazz player/teacher for a long time, and have had the good fortune of working, studying, and playing with a lot of great players. I’d like to give a little bit of insight into what I’ve learned, but please feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

First of all, the “theoretical minimum” is going to depend heavily on what kind of music you’re playing. You COULD use things like set theory, hexachords, and the rest of Milton Babbitt’s things to analyze delta blues, but my God… why on Earth would you want to?

At its core, all “theory” really is being able to connect two or more ideas together. We all have a “theory” when we play, whether we’re aware of it or not. Even as something as simple as “assuming the guitar is in tune, if I play this chord shape, it will always have the same sound” is a theoretical construct.

There are a number of “theoretical traditions” – collections of common ideas passed down and formed into a pedagogy – that may or may not make it easier to play. Some of it may be useful to you, some of it may not. My litmus test is something like:

  • Does it help you understand the mindset of the players you are trying to emulate?
  • Does it help you communicate ideas more fluently to your peers?
  • Does it help you expand the artistic boundaries of the music you’re playing, in ways that may not be possible through your ears alone?

All of those things are going to depend on where you’re at, what kind of music you play, what your goals are, etc.

But because that’s kind of hopelessly broad, here’s a one-size-fits-all answer:

You should be able to name the scale degrees of all 12 keys – instantly, painlessly, effortlessly, mistake-free

If I ask you what the 6th degree of D is, you should answer “B” without a second thought.
If I ask you what the 5th degree of Ab is, you should answer “Eb” like someone just asked you your name.

I’m dead serious about this. It should be hardwired. Like if someone asked you 1 + 1. If you have to think about it, it’s not there yet.

There are a bunch of ways to get there… flash cards, worksheets, whatever. Do it for 5 - 10 minutes every day. You’ll make much faster progress than you think.

And if you’re at the point where what I’m asking doesn’t even make that much sense, or it’s still fuzzy, then there’s some base theoretical knowledge that needs to happen. There are lots of resources out there for basic music theory, pick one that works for you.

Once you can do that, I guarantee you that the rest of your music theory studies will be a breeze. There will be things you still need to study, of course, but you will have the keys to the kingdom. And this will be true no matter what kind of music you play.

Now, the question of “what do improvisors think when they’re playing” came up. This is a tremendously complex question – I am going to stick mostly with jazz players, because that’s what I know and because improvisation is an integral part of jazz and there’s a very high bar you have to reach before you’re even considered minimally competent at it.

The short answer: it depends on the player.

Troy has brought up Martin Miller, and how he has a collection of licks and ideas that he plays over each chord and/or chord changes. That is true for some players.

You could think of this as a spectrum of sorts. On the one side, you would have players that play almost entirely pre-arranged licks. On the other side, you have players that almost entirely eschew licks and patterns, and try to “live in the moment” – creating entirely spontaneous music.

Troy has argued that most – maybe even all – guitar players fall into this first group. But looking at the players he cites – Martin Miller, Pat Martino – I believe there might be some selection bias at work. Gypsy players, for the most part, love licks. A lot of them come straight from Django. And Pat Martino, God bless him, but work through something like “Linear Expressions” and you see those ideas pop up again and again for his entire career. Those guys are great players – they have a bag of tricks, and it works for them. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But there are other guys who don’t operate like that. It’s easier to find guys who aren’t guitar players: the classic example is Sonny Rollins, an all-time great improvisor that has spent 50+ years walking a tightrope every time he plays a solo. Lennie Tristano, a great player and teacher, specifically structured his teaching so that his students would NOT be playing memorized materials. You can hear the results of that in his own playing, and in his two most famous students, Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh.

And there are guitar players who really do try to play spontaneously. Wayne Krantz is a good example. Someone who would be good to talk to, if you wanted to get in their head, would be NYC based guitarist Chris Crocco. He has terrific chops, plays lines that should not be playable on guitar, and tries to consciously avoid any patterns in his playing.

As far as things other people have brought up in the thread:

  • Pat Martino’s minor conversion is pretty straightforward: convert every chord type to minor. “Minor” for PM is not a specific scale – it’s a dorian/melodic minor mix with ample use of chromatic passing notes.
  • Ben Monder’s teaching (if he is even interested in teaching at all, and I’m not sure that he is) is not going to be geared towards beginners or intermediate players. It’s going to be for advanced/professional players who want to explore the bleeding edge of harmonic concepts on guitar. If you’re asking about scales, chords, triads, ie, basic stuff, then he’s not going to be interested in working with you.
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Thank you for taking the time to write out such a detailed response! Many thanks to the other guys too!

Makes total sense. I know all the chords in the keys, but I´m way too slow in this and have to think for a few seconds - need to get them to the rapid fire state. :slightly_smiling_face:

sorry… and how exactly it would help me to improvise?
For example, I know, that if I want to get bluesy tone right now I have to play THIS note, but if I want to get arabic sound I have to play THAT note. I know where these notes are on my fretboard. How come that knowing names of these notes makes any difference?
I mean, music theory is a descriptive science just like linguistics. But saying that people which don’t know linguistics can’t really speak is a bit… wrong.
P.S. Sorry for my english

I think this a very good analogy. Not to say there can’t be any instances where having mastery of the notes names for each key might be beneficial, but there are a great many common situations where having an intuitive understanding of the scale degrees within a key (and where to find them on the fretboard), regardless of the note names or absolute pitch of each note, will take you very very far.

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Fun thing that even functional theory - which is the base of musical theory - works well without note names or key names. Once you found a tonic (or dominant,subdominant, whatever… any reference point) you have it. Solmisation was matter before equal temperament. It could still be significant for some instruments, which keys are enequal. But guitar is an almost ideal instrument for transposing. No black keys, no white keys, no need to regulate your air-blowing. You just shift fret up or fret down.

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sorry… and how exactly it would help me to improvise?
For example, I know, that if I want to get bluesy tone right now I have to play THIS note, but if I want to get arabic sound I have to play THAT note. I know where these notes are on my fretboard. How come that knowing names of these notes makes any difference?

“Hey man, I’ve got a cool way to get an altered sound using triad pairs. On a V7, just play major triads from the b5 and b6.” - a sax player

There are a few ways I can figure out how to play that. Maybe I just have really, really good ears and am very comfortable hearing altered sounds – probably not the case for most people. Or maybe I can figure out some sort of fretboard pattern… but then I have to figure out different patterns for other positions on the fretboard, and that’s an awful lot of memorization. And the sax player isn’t going to be able to help me, because they don’t know anything about the fretboard.

It’s much, much easier if I just know that the b5 and b6 of G7 are Db and Eb.

Or let’s say I’m in one of Barry Harris’ bebop workshops. He tells the class: “D7, play an augmented triad going down, starting on the third, then jump back up to the root, half step between the root and seven, and run it down to the third of the tritone. Ready…one, two, three, four!”

Or if you want a very practical example when it comes to improvisation, suppose your ears are developed enough where you can hear what, let’s say, the 6th sounds like in the key of C major. This is a very common and useful way to approach ear training: learning how notes sound relative to a key center. If you have that sound in your head AND you instantly know what the 6th of Cmajor is (A), you can now play any “A” on the guitar and know ahead of time what it will sound like. You are not limited to any specific patterns or shapes.

It’s true that one doesn’t need any formal training to learn a language. Pretty much every child can speak fluently before they set foot in classroom.

But children are exposed to thousands and thousands of hours of practice with that language by the time they’re 5 or 6 years old. They don’t realize it, of course, but they are being immersed in it, every day, from the time they’re born. Maybe you can find a comparable experience in music. You could be like Bireli Lagrene, and have your relatives teach you Django solos from the time you’re old enough to hold a guitar.

Most of us aren’t lucky enough to have that kind of formative training in music. I know that when I’ve studied new languages as a teenager or an adult, I was also taught that language’s grammar, syntax, etc. Maybe if I had been immersed in that language for years and years, I would have picked it up on my own. But why not utilize every possible learning avenue that you can, if it can help make other things easier?

And even in my native language, formal education helped polish my skills. It wasn’t an either/or choice – they complemented each other. That’s true of music theory, too.

By all means, keep working on ear training, technique, rhythm, repertoire, etc. Music theory won’t replace those studies, but it can complement them.

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I’m definitely not a great improviser, so please explain if I’m missing something, but I don’t see the advantage of thinking this way. How is it easier to memorize all the notes in all keys, then figure out what notes you actually need to play and then find them on the fretboard? Why is that better compared to simply having a reference note (like the root of the chord) and memorizing the intervals around it? On guitar you can only do that once and move the system anywhere.

That’s not a lot of memorization compared to learning all the note to key relationships, not even mentioning some of the more obscure situations where double sharps/flats or enharmonics appear. Any thoughts on this? Improvisation is something I really want to get better at and I’m trying to understand ways to think about it effectively.

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I would certainly recommend learning the notes and intervals on the fretboard as well. It’s not a matter of one or the other, and a knowledge of both will reinforce the other.

But why not just stop with fretboard knowledge? Why also memorize scale degrees outside of any relationship to the guitar? Isn’t that more work?

It may seem that way. But memorizing all those relationships on the fretboard is a lot more work than it might initially seem.

Let’s take a note like good ol’ “D.” How would we learn all the relationships on the fretboard?

WIthin the first twelve frets, there are 6 different places we can play a “D”:

  • 10th fret E string
  • 5th fret A string
  • Open string D string
  • 7th fret G string
  • 3rd fret B string
  • 10th fret E string

To memorize the relationships of all 11 other notes, both above AND below each of those notes… that’s a LOT of memorization.

But that memorization becomes a lot easier if I already know that the 5th of D is A, the 3rd is F#, etc. In this case, my theoretical knowledge reinforces my fretboard knowledge.

And other times, even if I have a pretty good knowledge of the fretboard, it can be hard to see how certain shapes relate to one another.

For example, here’s a nice chord:

E -x-
B -6-
G -8-
D -8-
A -X-
E -7-

What would we call that? Bmaj7b5 or Bmaj7#11? That’s what most people would say.

How about a G7 with a #9 and b13? Yep, totally works.

But that’s tough to see just looking at it. There’s no “G” in the actual chord. Its root isn’t even particularly close to a “G” on the sixth string!

The easiest way for me to think about it: it’s a maj7b5 with the root on the 3rd of a dom7. This is an example where the abstract, theoretical information is actually much easier than trying to find a visual relationship on the fretboard.

And I absolutely cannot stress this enough: musicians on other instruments (horns, keyboards, even most other string instruments) don’t know the first thing about the guitar fretboard. If you want to communicate with them, or take ideas from texts that aren’t guitar-centric, it’s really, really helpful to be able to communicate using terminology that everyone can understand.

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The easiest way for me to think about it: it’s a maj7b5 with the root on the 3rd of a dom7. This is an example where the abstract, theoretical information is actually much easier than trying to find a visual relationship on the fretboard.

And I absolutely cannot stress this enough: musicians on other instruments (horns, keyboards, even most other string instruments) don’t know the first thing about the guitar fretboard. If you want to communicate with them, or take ideas from texts that aren’t guitar-centric, it’s really, really helpful to be able to communicate using terminology that everyone can understand.

I was going to chime in with pretty much this. And I agree–it isn’t about doing it one way vs. another way. Both these ways of thinking compliment each other. I think it’s wise to understand both, assuming you’re wanting to play music where this level of knowledge would be useful.

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As they say on the internet…

I think the main issue here is the massive front-loading of the process where we tell someone they have to know a certain amount of memorized stuff, up front, before actually playing any music. That is very challenging. I personally would not want to sit there with flash cards memorizing note names. That type of memorization for me personally is super challenging, and takes a long time before anything sticks, is generally unpleasant / not fun, especially now that I’m older.

By contrast, a hands-on mix of both would be a lot more palatable. I started out on piano, so a certain amount of the “names of things” happened naturally, just by playing tunes. So many Billy Joel tunes are in C, F, G, Bb, and maybe D, that I can tell you the names of I, IV, and V in those keys just because I played those chords so often. But if you ask me to very quickly rattle off scale degree 6 in c# major I’m going to have to imagine a keyboard in my head for a second and count up. It’s just not all that relevant.

If I’m playing a tune with a sax player and I need to know those chords, I’m going to learn them and their respective scale degrees a lot faster. But if I’ve never played anything in Ab major, just as an example, I’m probably going to have to think for a moment before I can tell you scale degree four of the altered scale of the V chord of Ab - let’s say, for the purposes of doing an altered dominant in Ab.

But on a guitar, I can definitely get that shape, and that scale degree, in probably one second or less, just by feel/shape on the fretboard.

So… both! But in a hands-on, applied fashion.

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The way I see it, it depends on several factors.
-How one’s mind operates. For me, I found out, it’s easier to recall , say 7 notes of a particular key or scale than a bunch of different shapes-shapes are always different, the notes are always the same. On the other hand, being aware of the shapes-as many shapes as possible-gives me faster access to the notes I’m looking for. Does that make any sense?
-We’re talking about improvisation, but over what? One thing is imrovising over a one chord modal vamp, a totally different thing is improvising over Giand Steps. For me, the more complex it gets the more impossible is to get away with just knowing the shapes.
-Which musicans are one’s role models? The ones I admire the most, that inspire me to grab a guitar and trying to become better and better are guys that knew their stuff inside out. I aspire to that level, no only chops-wise but having that level of deep understanding of the craft. I want to be able to communicate with other instrumentalists, and to do that we need a common ground-that common ground is not the techincal peculiarities of our specific instruments, instead it’s music itself.
-Another factor is the need one might have to develop new shapes. Maybe the shapes we’ve been taught don’t work with our particular techincal-say, picking-idiosyncransies. Maybe I need to find a way to play that scale pattern or arpeggio or Pat’s (any of them) lick. The thing is, I need to know what is this thing I’m looking for so I can re-locate it, re-finger it and built a new shape around it, so it can work with, say, my preffered kind of pick slanting. Maybe it has happened to you guys, it sure has happened to me.

All the above, of course, is just my personal opinion. I’m aware, and have been a witness many many times, of people that need any of that to make important, powerful music.

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wow… I didn’t expect so much reaction. Sorry ))
I’m not saying that knowing musical theory is unnecesary, I’m saying that it’s not so crucial as many people thinks. (I feel like I’m a devil’s advocate)
It was good examples when you really need to use it - communication. If you’re sitting in a cafe without your instruments and you want to share some ideas - well, it’s obvious you’d use musical theory language. Or when a musical teacher says something to you.
Though “On a V7, just play major triads from the b5 and b6” doesn’t really requires knowing of note names.
And I think what @Ernest_W_Retallack noticed is right: it depends on the way of thinking. For example, in my case: while plying I think “hey, I can add this sweet 9th!” and I know that for current chord it would be THIS fret on THIS string or THAT fret on THAT string. It’s not like I can accurately build intervals on guitar. It’s just because I know how 9th would sound. And I know where on the fretboard I could get this sound.
If I would try to apply it in other way it would be like this: “ok, I can add 9th here”… “what is the current chord?”… looking on the fret… “aha, it’s D-sept major. so 9th would be E”…"where’s E? aha, here and there! ok!"
So for me it would be not just useless, but it’d make me slower because I need to process more information which is, in fact, irrellevant to the fact that I just want to add some decoration to melody. But it’s me… I think for other people it would be easier to use absolute scale.
— updated —
…and I have nothing against scales, modes, shapes,functions, alternations etc. It’s absolute scale (or named notes) which I don’t think is useful enough.

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